Atonement on the cross Doctrine is a destructive error?

[SDAchristian]

Prologue:
Hidden in your statement is the assumption of authority from the GODhead.

Minimum Salvation:
AV Lk 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

... Adventism purports to be a christian church and Christiandom believes that the Son is eternal God, not a created being. This is a legitimate question to ask someone.

Can you show that this is salvific to GOD's decision of an individual's beliefs about GOD ???

IOW: Does your opinion have ANY affect on GOD's salvation decision for my soul ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[Common Tater]

Prologue:
Hidden in your statement is the assumption of authority from the GODhead.

Minimum Salvation:
AV Lk 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Can you show that this is salvific to GOD's decision of an individual's beliefs about GOD ???

IOW: Does your opinion have ANY affect on GOD's salvation decision for my soul ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

Can you quit dodging the question? Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God or do you believe that he is a created being?

It's ironic that you strongly believe that when you worship is salvific, but that who you worship is not. You are doing the riverdance around the simple question of who you worship. Do you worship the Son who is Eternal God or do you worship the Son who is the created being?

 

[SDAchristian]

Prologue:
AV Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Can you quit dodging the question?

When you ask a question, not loaded with an assumption.

Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God or do you believe that he is a created being?

What bearing does that question have on GOD's authority then ???

It's ironic that you strongly believe that when you worship is salvific, ...

It is NOT salvific now, It is salvific, when man creates a Sunday Worship Law, to negate GOD's authority in the Sabbath Rest command, in our free will right to choose to worship, who and when as we chose.

I find it interesting, the beast theocracy in blasphemy in Rev.13 is not a consideration here.

..., but that who you worship is not.

Would you like to discuss that then ???

You are doing the riverdance around the simple question of who you worship.

No, It is the extra authority baggage, loaded in our discussion.

AV Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I worship Jesus Christ, as part of the GODhead. Is that good enough for you ??? If not, why not ???

Do you worship Jesus Christ, as part of the GODhead ??? <<< You do realize there is a follow up question coming to this.

Do you worship the Son who is Eternal God or do you worship the Son who is the created being?

AV 2Pt 1:17-18 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Depends on who's testimony for Jesus, we will agree on ...

AV Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Is GOD the Father, Jesus' "my Father" ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[Common Tater]

Prologue:
AV Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

When you ask a question, not loaded with an assumption.

What bearing does that question have on GOD's authority then ???

It is NOT salvific now, It is salvific, when man creates a Sunday Worship Law, to negate GOD's authority in the Sabbath Rest command, in our free will right to choose to worship, who and when as we chose.

I find it interesting, the beast theocracy in blasphemy in Rev.13 is not a consideration here.

Would you like to discuss that then ???

No, It is the extra authority baggage, loaded in our discussion.

AV Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I worship Jesus Christ, as part of the GODhead. Is that good enough for you ??? If not, why not ???

Do you worship Jesus Christ, as part of the GODhead ??? <<< You do realize there is a follow up question coming to this.

AV 2Pt 1:17-18 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Depends on who's testimony for Jesus, we will agree on ...

AV Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Is GOD the Father, Jesus' "my Father" ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

You still have not answered the question. Do you believe the Son is Eternal God, or do you believe he is a created being?

 

[SDAchristian]

You still have not answered the question. Do you believe the Son is Eternal God, or do you believe he is a created being?

You have ask this question enough, for me to know it's important to YOU !!!

In your own mind, what is at stake in answering or not answering this question, in your opinion, with scriptures, if that is possible ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[Common Tater]

You have ask this question enough, for me to know it's important to YOU !!!

In your own mind, what is at stake in answering or not answering this question, in your opinion, with scriptures, if that is possible ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

You've refused to answer this question enough times to know it's important to YOU not to give a clear answer.

Instead, you dodge by answering with a question.

Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God, or do you believe that he is a created being?

 

[pythons]

As they say, "the devil is in the details".

Seventh day Adventist Doctrine affirms that prior to the Incarnation Jesus was 'Michael the archangel'...
...Michael "Incarnates" into the body of the Virgin Mary & starts to grow - the intention here is that;
...Michael will attempt to secure salvation for humanity - IF Michael can pass the test of not sinning.

It's important to note that according to Ellen White - Michael had Deity on loan from "Father"...
...This "Deity" was Michael's to keep PROVIDED that he towed the rope (didn't screw up).
...This Deity 'in Michael' COULD BE LOST (extracted).

Ellen White
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty ( page 2 of 16 Article Christ Glorified )
https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/ST/ST18990510-V25-19.pdf

Ellen White describes exactly what this special juice (Deity) is and where it comes from.

Ellen White
God is self-existent, and the source and author of all things,-of angels, of men, of all the worlds,-of everything. Thus Paul says, "For. of him, and through him, and to him, are all things; to whom be glory forever. Amen." Rom. 11: 36. He is the source of all life and immortality.
Thus, speaking of the Father, Paul says, " Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto." 1 Tim. 6: 16. Notice that this glorious God is the only one who, in himself, possesses immortality. That is, he is the fountain-head, the source' of all life and immortality, Even Jesus Christ, the Son of God, derives his existence and his life from the Father, for so he himself says, " As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father, so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." John 6:57. "For as the Father bath life in himself ; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John 5:26. This statement is unequivocal. The Father has life in himself, and in his great love for his Son he bestows the same gift upon him; but it will be noticed that the Father is the one from whom the gift came.

The Trinity Doctrine holds that the Son is God for the exact same reason the Father and the Holy Spirit is God (the ONE SUBSTANCE).

In SDA theology God (the Father) "GIFTED" Michael Deity and this Deity or Godhead was Michael's to keep, it (the Deity) couldn't be lost WHILE or AS LONG AS Michael stood loyal to his loyalty (Father God). Think of it as a State issued Drivers License or "concealed weapons permit" - it's yours to hold and exercise AS LONG AS you don't get caught driving drunk / doing something illegal with your pistol or other crime!

Below Ellen articulates how this works.

“He had infinite power only because He was perfectly obedient to His Father's will.” (Ellen G. White, Manuscript 99, 1903, pp. 3, 4. "Christian Education in Our Schools", September 1, 1903, see also Selected Messages book 3, page 141, chapter 19, ‘The incarnation’)

No one would speak in similar fashion about the Father - i.e. that He only had infinite power because He was perfectly obedient! As if God could "screw up" and not be God! Christ help us! This is a small glimpse into the radical difference between the Trinity Doctrine Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholic's & Orthodox Christians hold AND the the Trinity Doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventists.

Remember, all the early SDA's categorically rejected the Trinity Doctrine - thus, it should not be too much of a surprise to see Ellen White repudiate the Trinity Doctrine in the Signs of the Times & the Sabbath Herald Church papers. This would be a tremendous burden for individuals to carry that hold Ellen White was a legitimate Prophet - she made all these anti-Trinitarian statements so the only thing SDA leadership can do is re-define the Trinity Doctrine in an attempt to rectify it so that it more aligns with the statements of Ellen White. I mean no ill will toward the SDA's and have even got to know an SDA Pastor fairly well who has softened some of my understandings on SDA's - however, the Trinity issue is a HUGE DEAL. The early Councils got it right - Ellen White and the other militant Arians got it wrong.

 

[Buzzard]

John 1:1

 

[Buzzard]

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.

--- and God Spake, and it stood fast---


4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.


John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.

--- and God Spake, and it stood fast---

 

[JonHawk]

Common Tater said:
You still have not answered the question. Do you believe the Son is Eternal God,...?

You have ask this question enough, for me to know it's important to YOU !!!

In your own mind, what is at stake in answering or not answering this question, in your opinion, with scriptures, if that is possible ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor4

 

[pythons]

The Handbook of Denominations identifies Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians & World Wide Church of God 7th day as "Adventists" and in truth they are "Adventists", they are just not "Seventh- day" Adventists.

Doctrines Adventist groups share that are apart and contrary to historic Christian groups.

1)
Jesus is NOT ETERNAL God. The Deity in Christ was a gift from Father God. Thus it could be said ' IN HIM [ Michael christ ] was life unborrowed, eternal, etc. It was the special juice or Deity OF FATHER GOD that was "gifted" to Michael christ. This Deity or special juice could be LOST BY Michael christ if He failed to live up to God's holy law while on earth. If the Deity was extracted Christ would eternally die as the flesh body was animated by the Alien Deity coursing within it.

2)
Soul sleeping

3)
JW are the only Adventists that eat pork and shrimp (foods identified as unclean to the Jews of the Old Covenant) - the rest of the Adventists abstain from eating things like that.

4)
The Trinity Doctrine is viewed to be "Babylon" and just more wine of Great Whore.

I've never known a "Traditional Adventist" to agree that Jesus always was and still is "Eternal God"...
...In Adventist ideology / theology merely saying it is considered blasphemy & Luciferian.

 

[SDAchristian]

Prologue:
AV 1C 15:56-57 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing{G622 apollumi}. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor4
{Additional Emphasis and Greek annotation by SDAchristian}

AV 2C 4:3-7 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost{G622 apollumi}: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

"who are perishing" from what exactly ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[SDAchristian]

2) Soul sleeping

AV Jn 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

So do you believe Jesus lied to the disciples, to make "Soul sleeping" doctrine an untruth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[JonHawk]

This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:3-5

Prologue:
AV 1C 15:56-57 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

AV 2C 4:3-7 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost{G622 apollumi}: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

"who are perishing" from what exactly ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved....
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 2 Thess 2:10-13

 

[pythons]

AV Jn 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

So do you believe Jesus lied to the disciples, to make "Soul sleeping" doctrine an untruth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

I believe that St. Paul equated dying and departing the body with actually being with Christ. Philippians 1, 23 -25.


I believe Jesus directly repudiated the Sadducees for believing the soul didn't go on after death. Luke 20, 38.

Job 14, 22 precludes the Adventist (Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian, WWCOG) interpretation that the soul is unconscious.

"Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passes; thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away. His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not. He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.”

The militant anti-Trinitarians who were the founding Seventh-day Adventists found themselves between a rock and a hard place after Miller pulled the plug on his errors. They needed a reason for something to have happened on October 22, 1844 so as to provide justification for their "movement". Think about it - if the souls of dead Christians were with Christ and not separated from His love (as the Bible teaches) it would INVALIDATE the Investigative Judgement. i.e. why would there need to be one if people were ALREADY IN HEAVEN.

As is often the case with false Prophets - they BLUNDER and mess their britches from time to time...
...Ellen soiled her panties pretty hard when early in her prophetic ministry she affirmed.
....Some old Testament saints and children martyred for Jesus were already in heaven.

Opp's!

 

[JonHawk]

SDAchristian said:
So do you believe Jesus lied to the disciples, to make "Soul sleeping" doctrine an untruth ???

JonHawk:
“I am the resurrection and the life."

I believe that St. Paul equated dying and departing the body with actually being with Christ. Philippians 1, 23 -25.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2

 

[Common Tater]

AV Jn 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

So do you believe Jesus lied to the disciples, to make "Soul sleeping" doctrine an untruth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

Do you believe that Jesus would have told the people a lie about the state of the dead in the story of Dives and Lazurus? That he would have led them astray instead of correcting their belief in the state of the dead?

By the way, I am stilling waiting for you to answer whether you believe that the Son is Eternal God or if he is a created being.

 

[pythons]

AV Jn 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

So do you believe Jesus lied to the disciples, to make "Soul sleeping" doctrine an untruth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

Hi SDAchristian,

Another thing you might consider is that Doctrinally, Jesus told the crowds and His Disciples to observe what the Scribes and Pharisees told them to do. This command was in a religious context and is significant because the Scribes and Pharisees BOTH believed in a spiritual afterlife subsequent to the death of the body and prior to the resurrection of the body on the last day.

The "Sadducees" believed as all Adventists (Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, etc.) on the question about death but Jesus didn't tell the crowds and His Disciples to defer to the religious instructions of the Sadducees.

Acts 23,8
But when Paul perceived that one part were Sad′ducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead I am on trial.” And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sad′ducees; and the assembly was divided. For the Sad′ducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all

To Common Tater's point;

Its frankly not believable that Jesus would cement ( confirm ) people in their religious error and Acts 23 ( along with the rich man and Lazarus ) is a wrecking ball to the Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian & SDA teaching on soul sleeping. Notice that when Jesus answered the Sadducees in their question about which brother out of the 7 would claim the wife at the Resurrection Jesus doesn't just answer THAT question, He slams the Sadducees on the other two errors they held - that EVERYONE knew they held.

A)
Existence of Angels
&
B)
Reality of a spiritual life after death and prior to the Resurrection.

Jesus wouldn't have repudiated the Sadducees error of denying the spiritual consciousness of dead saints if those same saints were in fact, unconscious! To suggest otherwise is to create a "Golem Christ", one that's subservient to the Ellen White's anti-Trinitarian husband and the other militant anti-trinitarian individuals that "thunk up" the distinctive doctrines of Adventism.

Common Tater's point is spot on - Jesus wouldn't operate this way. It goes against the totality of Scripture and common sense.

 

[JonHawk]

Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

To Common Tater's point;

Its frankly not believable that Jesus would cement ( confirm ) people in their religious error and Acts 23 ( along with the rich man and Lazarus ) is a wrecking ball to the Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian & SDA teaching on soul sleeping. Notice that when Jesus answered the Sadducees in their question about which brother out of the 7 would claim the wife at the Resurrection Jesus doesn't just answer THAT question, He slams the Sadducees on the other two errors they held - that EVERYONE knew they held.

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32

 

[pythons]

Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32

Yeah, that's the point of it.