Atonement on the cross Doctrine is a destructive error?

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32

Yeah, that's the point of it.

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

21 For what fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6

 

[Common Tater]

Hi SDAchristian,

Another thing you might consider is that Doctrinally, Jesus told the crowds and His Disciples to observe what the Scribes and Pharisees told them to do. This command was in a religious context and is significant because the Scribes and Pharisees BOTH believed in a spiritual afterlife subsequent to the death of the body and prior to the resurrection of the body on the last day.

The "Sadducees" believed as all Adventists (Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, etc.) on the question about death but Jesus didn't tell the crowds and His Disciples to defer to the religious instructions of the Sadducees.

Acts 23,8
But when Paul perceived that one part were Sad′ducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead I am on trial.” And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sad′ducees; and the assembly was divided. For the Sad′ducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all

To Common Tater's point;

Its frankly not believable that Jesus would cement ( confirm ) people in their religious error and Acts 23 ( along with the rich man and Lazarus ) is a wrecking ball to the Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian & SDA teaching on soul sleeping. Notice that when Jesus answered the Sadducees in their question about which brother out of the 7 would claim the wife at the Resurrection Jesus doesn't just answer THAT question, He slams the Sadducees on the other two errors they held - that EVERYONE knew they held.

A)
Existence of Angels
&
B)
Reality of a spiritual life after death and prior to the Resurrection.

Jesus wouldn't have repudiated the Sadducees error of denying the spiritual consciousness of dead saints if those same saints were in fact, unconscious! To suggest otherwise is to create a "Golem Christ", one that's subservient to the Ellen White's anti-Trinitarian husband and the other militant anti-trinitarian individuals that "thunk up" the distinctive doctrines of Adventism.

Common Tater's point is spot on - Jesus wouldn't operate this way. It goes against the totality of Scripture and common sense.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Phillipians 1:21-24 NASB

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NASB

These passages prove very problematic for Adventists once it is pointed out that Paul, a Pharisee, believed in the immortality of the soul.

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:

21 For what fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Phillipians 1:21-24 NASB

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NASB

These passages prove very problematic for Adventists once it is pointed out that Paul, a Pharisee, believed in the immortality of the soul.

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:

21 For what fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6

Common Tater said:
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Phillipians 1:21-24 NASB

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NASB

These passages prove very problematic for Adventists once it is pointed out that Paul, a Pharisee, believed in the immortality of the soul.

“Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” Rev 7:10

 

[pythons]

JonHawk,

I just looked the Heritage Singers up on the internet - to be a part of this group you have to:

"...... receptive to the Adventist message." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Singers

Are you affiliated with the Adventists? By this question I mean are you a Jehovah's Witness, SDA, Christadelphian or part of any other Adventist group.

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk,

I just looked the Heritage Singers up on the internet - to be a part of this group you have to:

"...... receptive to the Adventist message." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Singers

Are you affiliated with the Adventists? By this question I mean are you a Jehovah's Witness, SDA, Christadelphian or part of any other Adventist group.

Former SDA.

 

[SDAchristian]

Prologue:
AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Welcome to the current spiritual War !!!

AV Jn 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

So do you believe Jesus lied to the disciples, to make "Soul sleeping" doctrine an untruth ???

AV Hb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

I have a firm rule in apologetics, we can NEVER put a lie into GOD's words. With that said ...

Do you believe that Jesus would have told the people a lie about the state of the dead in the story of Dives and Lazurus? That he would have led them astray instead of correcting their belief in the state of the dead?

AV Lk 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Are these the words of Jesus, you are referring to, Right ???

The irony of this is, where is Lazurus' testimony after resurrection, if this story is literally true, as you implied ???

We need to agree for Jesus to be telling the Truth in BOTH instances, one is the literal Truth, and one is a parable.

Additional Evidence:
AV Mk 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

What are your thoughts(your testimony about Jesus) on this, without calling Jesus a liar, hence a sinner ???

While you are at it, How did Jesus escape the grave, in the truth of GOD ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[pythons]

Former SDA.

Thanks for answering JonHawk.

Did you retain any of the "distinctive Adventist Doctrines" after leaving the SDA Church? Examples would be Sabbath observance to the exclusion of any other day, Jesus pre-existing as Michael the archangel, soul sleeping and of course the anti-Trinitarian stuff?

Are you attending a Liturgical or generic Evangelical Church or did you leave the SDA Church for another Adventist Church?

I appreciate you entertaining my questions, that's really cool of you.

 

[pythons]

Are these the words of Jesus, you are referring to, Right ???

The irony of this is, where is Lazurus' testimony after resurrection, if this story is literally true, as you implied ???

We need to agree for Jesus to be telling the Truth in BOTH instances, one is the literal Truth, and one is a parable.


Yours in Christ, Michael

The point of a parable is not that it literally happened but that IT COULD HAVE LITERALLY HAPPENED.

You're suggesting here that God Almighty, for lack of a better idea, used what SDA's call Lucifer's 1st lie, to teach a spiritual truth?

I suppose there is no such thing as a bridge too far when one is forced prove their Prophet true at the expense of degrading Christ. In these cases I see its better that Christ be confused than Ellen White be wrong.

 

[Formersda]

Former SDA.

That brought back some memories, having to listen to them instead of Top of the Pops lol. you cannot get your theology in songs or choirs, these are singing sda heresies

 

[Formersda]

Thanks for answering JonHawk.

Did you retain any of the "distinctive Adventist Doctrines" after leaving the SDA Church? Examples would be Sabbath observance to the exclusion of any other day, Jesus pre-existing as Michael the archangel, soul sleeping and of course the anti-Trinitarian stuff?

Are you attending a Liturgical or generic Evangelical Church or did you leave the SDA Church for another Adventist Church?

I appreciate you entertaining my questions, that's really cool of you.

No I have not kept to any of the distinctive’s at all, I now attend an evangelical church who do exposition of scriptures.
I have only just really started due to lockdown restrictions here and fear of being deceived again.
Ironically it was the lockdown that led me out of the SDA church, complete lack of compassion to anyone who was fearful, nutty conspiracy theories and just general lack of wanting to study the Bible. I was called a God basher when I suggested sola scripture bible studies on “sabbath” afternoon. I also found out about the lies of EGW and her copying etc I don’t like liars and neither does God.
The investigative judgement was the first to go, then the “inspiration“ of EGW then everything else.

I found the good news that’s what led me out, I am now a believer in Jesus and know that His death on the cross paid it all (all means all) and He is sitting down at the right hand of God.
With having EGW SDA’s are serving two masters and that’s what I couldn’t fathom. I submit to God and God alone, no church, no pastor, no religion noone but God. As an SDA we had to submit to the church (EGW) and not think for ourselves.
I have been accused of not understanding the SDA truth now, like suddenly I lost the ability to think and reason. I have 2 degrees and I am now too stupid to understand the SDA “truths”. Or I take EGW out of context, like SDA’s never ever take the bible out of context.

the truth set me free, I follow the only light and that is Jesus Christ Himself, He is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

 

[pythons]

No I have not kept to any of the distinctive’s at all, I now attend an evangelical church who do exposition of scriptures.
I have only just really started due to lockdown restrictions here and fear of being deceived again.
Ironically it was the lockdown that led me out of the SDA church, complete lack of compassion to anyone who was fearful, nutty conspiracy theories and just general lack of wanting to study the Bible. I was called a God basher when I suggested sola scripture bible studies on “sabbath” afternoon. I also found out about the lies of EGW and her copying etc I don’t like liars and neither does God.
The investigative judgement was the first to go, then the “inspiration“ of EGW then everything else.

I found the good news that’s what led me out, I am now a believer in Jesus and know that His death on the cross paid it all (all means all) and He is sitting down at the right hand of God.
With having EGW SDA’s are serving two masters and that’s what I couldn’t fathom. I submit to God and God alone, no church, no pastor, no religion noone but God. As an SDA we had to submit to the church (EGW) and not think for ourselves.
I have been accused of not understanding the SDA truth now, like suddenly I lost the ability to think and reason. I have 2 degrees and I am now too stupid to understand the SDA “truths”. Or I take EGW out of context, like SDA’s never ever take the bible out of context.

the truth set me free, I follow the only light and that is Jesus Christ Himself, He is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

Thank you for sharing! From time to time I see SDA's reference statics of their members leaving which always seems to be attributed to things other than Doctrine. I found that hard to believe and your experience shows the reason folks leave the denomination is more than just things other than teaching.

 

[SDAchristian]

The point of a parable is not that it literally happened but that IT COULD HAVE LITERALLY HAPPENED.
You're suggesting here that God Almighty, for lack of a better idea, used what SDA's call Lucifer's 1st lie, to teach a spiritual truth?
I suppose there is no such thing as a bridge too far when one is forced prove their Prophet true at the expense of degrading Christ. In these cases I see its better that Christ be confused than Ellen White be wrong.

You are entitled to express your opinions here at CARM, until time runs out.

I am waiting for @Common Tater, to reply first, then I will address your concerns.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[Common Tater]

Prologue:
AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Welcome to the current spiritual War !!!

AV Hb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

I have a firm rule in apologetics, we can NEVER put a lie into GOD's words. With that said ...

AV Lk 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Are these the words of Jesus, you are referring to, Right ???

The irony of this is, where is Lazurus' testimony after resurrection, if this story is literally true, as you implied ???

We need to agree for Jesus to be telling the Truth in BOTH instances, one is the literal Truth, and one is a parable.

Additional Evidence:
AV Mk 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

What are your thoughts(your testimony about Jesus) on this, without calling Jesus a liar, hence a sinner ???

While you are at it, How did Jesus escape the grave, in the truth of GOD ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

I did not imply that this was a true story. What I said was that Jesus would have been telling the listeners a biblical lie about what happens after death if what he describes in the parable about what happens after death were not true. You are the one saying that Jesus could lie, not I.

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this [h]temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” John 2:19 NASB

Jesus said he, HE, God the Son, would raise himself up after three days. How was Jesus able to raise himself from death if his soul was asleep? Besides, Adventists don't believe the soul even exists after death.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 NASB

Read the parable of Dives and Lazurus again. And then remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross. “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The realm of the dead consisted of two sides. The Old Testament righteous went to Abraham's Busom, also known as Paradise. The wicked went to the place of torment.

By the way, you still have not answered my question. Do you believe that the Son was Eternal God, or do you believe he was a created being?

 

[Common Tater]

Sheol beneath is eager

to meet you upon your arrival.

It stirs the spirits of the dead to greet you—

all the rulers of the earth.

It makes all the kings of the nations

rise from their thrones.

They will all respond to you, saying,

“You too have become weak, as we are;

you have become like us!” Isaiah 14:9-11 NASB

But you will be brought down to Sheol,

to the lowest depths of the Pit.

Those who see you will stare;

they will ponder your fate:

“Is this the man who shook the earth

and made the kingdoms tremble,

who turned the world into a desert

and destroyed its cities,

who refused to let the captives

return to their homes?” Isaiah 14:15-17 NASB

 

[SDAchristian]

Do you believe that Jesus would have told the people a lie about the state of the dead in the story of Dives{actually a Wife} ...
{Additional Annotation by SDAchristian}

AV Lk 20:27-38 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Is this the story, that will prove your point ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[SDAchristian]

Prologue:
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

What day is resurrection day for Jesus again ???

Read the parable of Dives{thieves} ... And then remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross. “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
{Additional Annotation by SDAchristian}

So you have proof that both Jesus and that thief went to "Paradise" that day ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[SDAchristian]

By the way, you still have not answered my question. Do you believe that the Son was Eternal God, or do you believe he was a created being?

AV Jn 10:24-27 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

You are the one with the "doubt", so I can not see where my answer would help you.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[JonHawk]

#143 JonHawk said:
Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32

pythons said:
Yeah, that's the point of it.

Thanks for answering JonHawk.

Did you retain any of the "distinctive Adventist Doctrines" after leaving the SDA Church? Examples would be Sabbath observance to the exclusion of any other day, Jesus pre-existing as Michael the archangel, soul sleeping and of course the anti-Trinitarian stuff?

Are you attending a Liturgical or generic Evangelical Church or did you leave the SDA Church for another Adventist Church?

I appreciate you entertaining my questions, that's really cool of you.

That doesn't make any sense. That still leaves you with a dead double talking prophetess.

SDAs-28Beliefs #18​

The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White.​

What's your deal pythons? It appears you've been cozying around the SDAs for quite some time.

 

[pythons]

#143 JonHawk said:
Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32


That doesn't make any sense. That still leaves you with a dead double talking prophetess.

SDAs-28Beliefs #18​

The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White.​

What's your deal pythons? It appears you've been cozying around the SDAs for quite some time.

You are difficult to follow.

I debated my first SDA on a web tv device in the early 90's...
...Something about it was fun & I learned a few things.
...Time has passed and I've continued on.

Is English your 1st language JonHawk?