Atonement on the cross Doctrine is a destructive error?

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Some will know these 'secret's from the Holy Spirit's enlightenment.
You are the one saying that Jesus could lie, not I.
That depends on spiritual perspective, in your opinion.
I did not imply that this was a true story. What I said was that Jesus would have been telling the listeners a biblical lie about what happens after death if what he describes in the parable about what happens after death were not true.
What is your understanding of the climax/point of Truth in the parable, that Jesus was telling ???

"I did not imply that this was a true story.", Some would disagree with you. What was the prevalent understanding of death of those Jesus was speaking with ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

What day is resurrection day for Jesus again ???

So you have proof that both Jesus and that thief went to "Paradise" that day ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Yes, I have proof. Christ said it was so and he does not lie.

You have not answered my question. Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God or do you believe he is a created being?
 

Pitbull

New Member
Prologue:
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

What day is resurrection day for Jesus again ???

So you have proof that both Jesus and that thief went to "Paradise" that day ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Peter says this regarding what Jesus did when He was dead in the flesh:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.1 Peter 3

Peter says Jesus was put to death in the flesh but His spirit was alive and proclaiming stuff to the spirits who are in prison because they were disobedient before the flood.
How does this passage fit in to SDA theology?
 
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JonHawk

Active member
#143 JonHawk said:
Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32

pythons ....did you leave the SDA Church for another Adventist Church?
That doesn't make any sense. That still leaves you with a dead double talking prophetess.

The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White.

What's your deal pythons? It appears you've been cozying around the SDAs for quite some time.

You are difficult to follow.

I debated my first SDA on a web tv device in the early 90's...
...Something about it was fun & I learned a few things.
...Time has passed and I've continued on.

Is English your 1st language JonHawk?
Why should anyone find it difficult that God raises the dead?

Where did you come up with your monicker?

I'm using google translate, no one can pull the wool over your eyes.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
By the way, you still have not answered my question. Do you believe that the Son was Eternal God, or do you believe he was a created being?

So you have proof that both Jesus and that thief went to "Paradise" that day ???

Yours in Christ, Michael


and you of all posters have proof they didn't
?????

if so do as Peter says
be always ready and """ABLE""" to give an answer from the Scriptures
(Not EGW nor the McNuttleys of the SDA)

Scripture proof there Michael;
to not give an Answer is -----
those that deny him in front of men
he will deny to the Angels
 

JonHawk

Active member
SDAchristian said:
So you have proof that both Jesus and that thief went to "Paradise" that day ???

Scripture proof there Michael;
to not give an Answer is -----
those that deny him in front of men
he will deny to the Angels
@SDAc
Spoken like a true law peddler.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced...
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
SDA - Michael has no idea what is true nor false
all he knows is;
how to "Parrott" the words of the Gods of 7th Day Adventism

Hawk;
as long as men wear the "Earrings" placed on their Ears by :devilish: those :devilish: that speak for the
"Gods of Egypt" all they have Ears too Hear" are the voice of
Those that speak for the "Egyptian Gods"

as he saith;
only those that have "Eyes too See and Ears to hear"
will see, hear and understand
 

pythons

Active member
#143 JonHawk said:
Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32


That doesn't make any sense. That still leaves you with a dead double talking prophetess.

The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White.

What's your deal pythons? It appears you've been cozying around the SDAs for quite some time.


Why should anyone find it difficult that God raises the dead?

Where did you come up with your monicker?

I'm using google translate, no one can pull the wool over your eyes.

That's commendable JonHawk! That's what I'd call dedication!

What country are ya hailing from?
 

JonHawk

Active member
#143 JonHawk said:
Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32

pythons ....did you leave the SDA Church for another Adventist Church?
That doesn't make any sense. That still leaves you with a dead double talking prophetess.

Why should anyone find it difficult that God raises the dead?

That's commendable JonHawk! That's what I'd call dedication!

What country are ya hailing from?
Texas. :cool:
 

pythons

Active member
#143 JonHawk said:
Why do you seek the living among the dead? Luke 24:5

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32


That doesn't make any sense. That still leaves you with a dead double talking prophetess.

Why should anyone find it difficult that God raises the dead?


Texas. :cool:

I don't think anyone who professes to be a Christian finds it difficult that God raises the dead...
...The issue is that there are professing Christians who claim that the dead are unconscious.
...In a state of soul sleeping - and remain that way until the Resurrection of the Body.

This was the specific error Christ corrected the Sadducees about.

The Sadducees denied the immortality of the soul and this was why Jesus answered that question the Sadducees didn't ask...
...Jesus exposed the Sadducees errors so all would know.

I drove through the State of Texas on my way back from the Army - that's a big state...
...Are you a native Spanish speaker?
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Job asks and answers your question
seems he was at odds with his 3 Hypocrite so called Friends and Councilors

Job 42
And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job,
the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite,
My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends:


--------the reason-------

for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right,
as my servant Job hath.


Job asks and answers the question
seems he was at odds with his 3 Hypocrite so call councilors

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!

14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.

15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.


I'll go with the words of Job;
Christ did not teach different either
 

pythons

Active member
Job asks and answers your question
seems he was at odds with his 3 Hypocrite so called Friends and Councilors

Job 42
And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job,
the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite,
My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends:


--------the reason-------

for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right,
as my servant Job hath.


Job asks and answers the question
seems he was at odds with his 3 Hypocrite so call councilors

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!

14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.

15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.


I'll go with the words of Job;
Christ did not teach different either

Job did answer the question - extremely clear I might add - but one has to read more than Adventist proof texts.

Job 14, 20
His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not. He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.

Like other Old Testament teaching on this topic the dead generally DON'T KNOW what's happening "under the sun" as their part in how things play out is generally done and over. As the text above clearly shows this does not mean that they are "unconscious" - this is an Adventist & anti-Trinitarian interpretation.
 

Common Tater

Active member
Yes, I have proof. Christ said it was so and he does not lie.

Prologue:
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

What day is resurrection day for Jesus again ???

So you have proof that both Jesus and that thief went to "Paradise" that day ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Resurrection day for Jesus was the third day.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:32 KJV

The better translation is Hades, the realm of the dead, instead of Hell. Note what it says. His soul was not left in Hades. It does not say His soul never went to Hades, it says his soul wasn't left there. 1 Peter 3 tells us he preached to the spirits.

Still waiting for you to answer as to whether you believe that the Son has always been Eternal God, or whether you believe he was a created being.
 

Common Tater

Active member
AV Lk 20:27-38 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Is this the story, that will prove your point ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
This passage does not refute what Jesus said in the story of Dives and Lazarus. Hades, the realm of the dead, was only a way station for the righteous and unrighteous souls prior to Christ's death and resurrection. The righteous could not go to be with God until Christ's sacrifice, once and for all time.

You would have us believe that Christ presented the truth to his disciples and the Pharisees in the story by telling them a lie. You would have us believe that he would not correct their belief in a soul that exists after death if that belief were indeed untrue.

I'd still like for you to answer whether you believe that the Son was Eternal God or whether he was a created being.
 

JonHawk

Active member
I don't think anyone who professes to be a Christian finds it difficult that God raises the dead...
Indeed, anyone who professes Christ ought not have difficulty believing that God raises the dead, since God establishes this very thing through the Spirit of Christ, "even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you."
...The issue is that there are professing Christians who claim that the dead are unconscious.
...In a state of soul sleeping - and remain that way until the Resurrection of the Body.

This was the specific error Christ corrected the Sadducees about.
The Sadducees denied the immortality of the soul and this was why Jesus answered that question the Sadducees didn't ask...
...Jesus exposed the Sadducees errors so all would know.

For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 1 Corinthians 11

I drove through the State of Texas on my way back from the Army - that's a big state...
...Are you a native Spanish speaker?
Can't speak a lick of Spanish but that doesn't prevent anyone from using BibleGateway Spanish version:

Efesios 5:7-11 Dios Habla Hoy
No tengan ustedes, pues, ninguna parte con ellos. 8 Ustedes antes vivían en la oscuridad, pero ahora, por estar unidos al Señor, viven en la luz. Pórtense como quienes pertenecen a la luz, 9 pues la luz produce toda una cosecha de bondad, rectitud y verdad. 10 Examinen siempre qué es lo que agrada al Señor. 11 No compartan la conducta estéril de los que son de la oscuridad; más bien sáquenla a la luz.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 1 Corinthians 11
2Peter 3:17
""..... hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

keep in mind that the epistles of Paul are, as Peter says of certain men
ie:
unlearned and unstable wrest ....... unto their own destruction.

What is "the Lord’s body."
could it be Paul was not speaking of food and drink
but the Body of Christ, which is ??????????????????
 

JonHawk

Active member
JonHawk said:
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 1 Corinthians 11

2Peter 3:17 ""..... hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

keep in mind that the epistles of Paul are, as Peter says of certain men ie: unlearned and unstable wrest ....... unto their own destruction.

What is "the Lord’s body." could it be Paul was not speaking of food and drink but the Body of Christ, which is ??????????????????
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:16-18
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Yes, I have proof. Christ said it was so and he does not lie.
AV Lk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

You realize, that is your interpretation from your opinion ???

Let us try to not make Jesus a liar, from our opinion to the evidence available.

The punctuation is added by translators, seeing the original text, did not have any.

Where is "paradise" then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The punctuation is added by translators, seeing the original text, did not have any.



Yours in Christ, Michael
What ????
Oh come on there SDA;
is that the best you can do
"the Translators made a mistake " -----

So; Oh Wise One;
what other aahhhh "Mistakes" did the translators make ???

so maybe you can inform us where, if any,
the comma should be placed

SDA;
God forgive you; for you know not what you do
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Noting What happen to Eve and the serpent:
Have you ever considered that to believe who is GOD, is a free will choice offered by GOD, in the presence of satan's lies ???
You have not answered my question. Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God or do you believe he is a created being?
"Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God ...", Did Jesus ever say exactly that ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
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