Authority Required?

It says God and his father of Jesus. Therefore God is Jesus' father.
meaning the same one person in the ECHAD.... (smile). now your training scripture, Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

now who name did he write? my God ...... name ___________ fill in the blank. (smile).....

:ninja:
 
Do you really want to say that a disciple of the Lord has the authority to forbid what the Lord has commanded?
I did not say or imply therefore that is a strawman. Since we agree that a disciple does not have the authority to forbid what the Lord commanded. And we agree that the Lord commands baptism. That makes baptism necessary for salvation since we must be obedient to the Lord to be saved. In your view, can a person deny baptism and be saved?
 
Nonsense...baptism is a command to everyone who believes...
How do one believe? Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

:ninja:
 
The command to be baptized applies only to those who would be saved from the damnation that they have already earned.
All commands are to be obeyed.
It is not a sin, not to be baptized.
It is disobedience to be not baptized. Plain and simple.
We simply will be damned for the sins that we actually have committed, if we refuse gospel commands which come from God as he exercises his authority as our Redeemer.
Speak for yourself...
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
From God's authority as our Sovereign we are absolutely obligated to obey his moral law. Failure to do that perpetually, cumulatively, and perfectly results in our damnation. From God's authority as our Creator we are obligated to be holy as he is holy, so as not to offend our Creator. Failure to be holy as God is holy results in damnnation, but for grace, to which we are rightly consigned.
I don't know of any passage in the scripture that says that. Can you cite a passage saying that?
But whether God is your Redeemer or not is a choice that you make. God does not have to be your Redeemer, God wants to be your Redeemer. So when he commands you to be baptized, as your Redeemer, you are not sinning against an absolute obligation you have to God.
When you are commanded by God to do something you must do it...
Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
You are sinning against God's beneficent grace and mercy toward you. It is categorically different from a sin for which we are properly damned. We are damned for violating our absolute obligations to God not for violating God's beneficent intentions for us.
So you are saying it is Ok to sin against God? Please show a passage in the scripture that says it is OK to sin against God. You don't seem to understand that damnation is eternal...
You are teaching rebelliousness by rejecting the word of God...
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
 
How do one believe? Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
those who call on him are commanded to be baptized
Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
those who call on him are commanded to be baptized
Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

:ninja:
those who obey the Gospel are baptized...
You can spin it however you want it boils down to obeying the command to be baptized.
 
All commands are to be obeyed.
When Joshua laid out the blessings and curses before moving into the promised land, the command took the form of an alternative to choose one path and receive the blessings and choose another path and receive the curses this is precisely the nature of the question about redemption. God has left it for us to choose condemnation or redemption but once we have made the decision we must receive the wages.
It is disobedience to be not baptized. Plain and simple.
On the contrary, when the Pharisees came to be baptized by John he drove them away because they were not repentant.
Speak for yourself...
It is not up to me to speak to this issue, God has spoken to this issue. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
"All of your righteous deeds are like filthy rags."
I don't know of any passage in the scripture that says that. Can you cite a passage saying that?
Like the doctrine of the Trinity it's written all through the Bible. But you're objecting to it. so be specific. What in that statement do you dispute.
When you are commanded by God to do something you must do it...
When it comes to redemption we are commanded to make an election. But to those who choose life specific other commands also obtain.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Everyone is obligated to obey every command that applies to them. But your not obligated to obey a command that applies to me but not you.
So you are saying it is Ok to sin against God?
If you would respond to what I actually said then you wouldn't be perplexed by these hypothetical statements I did not say.
Please show a passage in the scripture that says it is OK to sin against God.
Go back, reread what I said, and answer your own question.
You don't seem to understand that damnation is eternal...
I can't speak to how things "seem" to you. But so far you seem to be having a hard time interpreting language.
You are teaching rebelliousness by rejecting the word of God...
No I'm not.
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
That would be good powder to keep dry for the occasion on which it actually applies.
 
Nonsense...baptism is a command to everyone who believes...
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Looking at the immediate context of the passage the following question arises, to whom was the risen LORD speaking? The answer of course is that the LORD was speaking to His already baptized disciples rather than to unbelievers. It is a promise from the risen LORD God rather than a command, there is no imperative in the passage.

It is consistent with Matthew 28:19-20 in that it too is addressed to His already baptized disciples rather than to unbelievers. It should also be noted that in both pericopes that the means given to the church to disciple all peoples and consequently save all peoples are baptizing and teaching.
 
I did not say or imply therefore that is a strawman. Since we agree that a disciple does not have the authority to forbid what the Lord commanded. And we agree that the Lord commands baptism. That makes baptism necessary for salvation since we must be obedient to the Lord to be saved. In your view, can a person deny baptism and be saved?
It seems that you still don't recognize the pattern of speech by Peter, and that he commanded a passive. These things were outlined by Peter in his own explanation of the event in chapter eleven.

According to the consistent scriptural witness, any person who despises or denies that baptism into Christ does now save us through the resurrection of Christ despises or denies the gospel of Jesus Christ. That person denies the necessarily objective true good news of the person and work of Christ to and for all men.
 
It seems that you still don't recognize the pattern of speech by Peter, and that he commanded a passive. These things were outlined by Peter in his own explanation of the event in chapter eleven.
how does that nullify his command to be baptized? Are you saying that Peter made a personal command?
According to the consistent scriptural witness, any person who despises or denies that baptism into Christ does now save us through the resurrection of Christ despises or denies the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Therefore baptism is necessary for salvation. One cannot deny the gospel and be saved
That person denies the necessarily objective true good news of the person and work of Christ to and for all men.
Therefore the person is not saved. A person cannot deny Christ-ordered baptism and be saved at the same time.
 
Looking at the immediate context of the passage the following question arises, to whom was the risen LORD speaking? The answer of course is that the LORD was speaking to His already baptized disciples rather than to unbelievers.
and this is what he told them...
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
clearly, he is telling them to command people to believe and be baptized...
It is a promise from the risen LORD God rather than a command, there is no imperative in the passage.
Of course, there is an imperative...You cannot avoid belief and baptism if you are to be saved...vs 16 is clear...
It is consistent with Matthew 28:19-20 in that it too is addressed to His already baptized disciples rather than to unbelievers.
So he is telling his already baptized believers to command the unbelievers to believe and be baptized. The command to be baptized is to the unbelievers. It is not a whimsical encouragement that one may decide if he wants to do it or not. It is directly related to being saved...Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved...those who don't believe shall be damned, the damned are not saved as some people seem to think.
It should also be noted that in both pericopes that the means given to the church to disciple all peoples and consequently save all peoples are baptizing and teaching.
Yes, the church commands the new believer to be baptized. Acts 2 ...peter does not mix matters here after preaching the gospel......
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 
When Joshua laid out the blessings and curses before moving into the promised land, the command took the form of an alternative to choose one path and receive the blessings and choose another path and receive the curses this is precisely the nature of the question about redemption. God has left it for us to choose condemnation or redemption but once we have made the decision we must receive the wages.
Where did Joshua lay out blessings and curses? God has not left it up to you to choose condemnation....
Acts 17:
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

On the contrary, when the Pharisees came to be baptized by John he drove them away because they were not repentant.
Where does the scripture say John drove away the Pharisees?
It is not up to me to speak to this issue, God has spoken to this issue. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
you just spoke for everyone here...
Thistle said:
We simply will be damned for the sins that we actually have committed, if we refuse gospel commands which come from God as he exercises his authority as our Redeemer.
"All of your righteous deeds are like filthy rags."
Jesus trumps Isaiah...
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Like the doctrine of the Trinity it's written all through the Bible. But you're objecting to it. so be specific. What in that statement do you dispute.
These are your words, my friend...I am asking you where is it written in the scripture. Paul said we must all speak the same thing...
Thistle said:
From God's authority as our Sovereign we are absolutely obligated to obey his moral law. Failure to do that perpetually, cumulatively, and perfectly results in our damnation. From God's authority as our Creator we are obligated to be holy as he is holy, so as not to offend our Creator. Failure to be holy as God is holy results in damnnation, but for grace, to which we are rightly consigned.
When it comes to redemption we are commanded to make an election. But to those who choose life specific other commands also obtain.
what rubbish are you spewing? I said When you are commanded by God to do something you must do it... so when it comes to redemption you are required to obey all God's commands, not just those you choose to obey.
Everyone is obligated to obey every command that applies to them. But your not obligated to obey a command that applies to me but not you.
If the command does not apply to you then it is not a command to you...So how does that negate...
Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
If you would respond to what I actually said then you wouldn't be perplexed by these hypothetical statements I did not say.

Go back, reread what I said, and answer your own question.
these are your words...
Thistle said:
You are sinning against God's beneficent grace and mercy toward you. It is categorically different from a sin for which we are properly damned. We are damned for violating our absolute obligations to God not for violating God's beneficent intentions for us.
God's intention is for us to not sin. Therefore sinning is violating God's beneficient intentions for us. So clearly you are saying that we are not damned for sinning...
I can't speak to how things "seem" to you. But so far you seem to be having a hard time interpreting language.
Lol I said you don't seem to understand ...not it seems to me...in other words, you don't understand.
No I'm not.
you just said...
Thistle said:
You are sinning against God's beneficent grace and mercy toward you. It is categorically different from a sin for which we are properly damned. We are damned for violating our absolute obligations to God not for violating God's beneficent intentions for us.
that is rebellion
That would be good powder to keep dry for the occasion on which it actually applies.
It applies to you at this point...you think it is OK to violate God's intentions..
 
how does that nullify his command to be baptized? Are you saying that Peter made a personal command?
To whom was Peter speaking when he asked, "Can anyone forbid...even as we?" It wasn't Cornelius and gang because as Gentiles they would be excluded from the set of people identified as, "even as we."

Yes, Peter is identified as the one who who commanded the passive. As he later put it, "Who was I to hinder God?" See Acts 11

Therefore baptism is necessary for salvation. One cannot deny the gospel and be saved
Yes, in the sense of Mark 16:16 that the person who did not believe will be condemned. (Since your other recent reply mentioned Mark 16:16 there will be more posted there.)
Therefore the person is not saved. A person cannot deny Christ-ordered baptism and be saved at the same time.
You're looking at the matter in a backwards manner, that is, you're looking at baptism into Christ as a matter of law, some kind of legal requirement, rather than as gospel or gift from God.
 
To whom was Peter speaking when he asked, "Can anyone forbid...even as we?" It wasn't Cornelius and gang because as Gentiles they would be excluded from the set of people identified as, "even as we."
Therefore no one can forbid a water baptism to those who believe. This implies Water Baptism is necessary.
Yes, Peter is identified as the one who who commanded the passive. As he later put it, "Who was I to hinder God?" See Acts 11
You are implying that Peter is giving command of his own volition and not as a requirement from God...Was Peter commanding them as his personal followers or as followers of God?
Yes, in the sense of Mark 16:16 that the person who did not believe will be condemned. (Since your other recent reply mentioned Mark 16:16 there will be more posted there.)
And only those who believe and are baptized will be saved... Therefore baptism is a requirement...
You're looking at the matter in a backwards manner, that is, you're looking at baptism into Christ as a matter of law, some kind of legal requirement, rather than as gospel or gift from God.
You are making an assumption. Baptism is a command and therefore necessary according to faith. Gospel means good news...and baptism is not a gift it is a command. The gift is the HS
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
and this is what he told them...
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
clearly, he is telling them to command people to believe and be baptized...

Of course, there is an imperative...You cannot avoid belief and baptism if you are to be saved...vs 16 is clear...
Look closely at Mark 16:16 and you will find that there is no imperative in the passage. The passage is a promise to the already baptized disciples of Christ who were to go out discipling all peoples by baptizing and teaching.

And while you're looking closely at Mark 16:16 you should also notice that there is no relative pronoun in search of an antecedent. In other words, it does not say, "The one who believed this [other thing] and is [then] baptized shall be saved..."
So he is telling his already baptized believers to command the unbelievers to believe and be baptized. The command to be baptized is to the unbelievers. It is not a whimsical encouragement that one may decide if he wants to do it or not. It is directly related to being saved...Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved...those who don't believe shall be damned, the damned are not saved as some people seem to think.
The command to the already baptized disciples of Christ is to disciple all peoples by baptizing and teaching. The command to the already baptized disciples of Christ is not to disciple all peoples by commanding unbelievers to baptize themselves and commanding unbelievers to teach themselves.

Remember, the gospel of Jesus Christ is by definition the objective true good news of the person and work of Christ for and to all men. The gospel of Jesus Christ is by definition not a command .
Yes, the church commands the new believer to be baptized. Acts 2 ...peter does not mix matters here after preaching the gospel......
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Peter in Acts 2 said that to those to whom the gospel had already been preached but still didn't get it. They didn't yet realize or understand that baptism into Christ does now save them through the resurrection of Christ. Otherwise, they would have asked to be baptized rather than ask, "What shall we do?"
 
Where did Joshua lay out blessings and curses?
Joshua 8:1-27
God has not left it up to you to choose condemnation....
"And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."" - Joshua 24:15 RSV​
Pity Joshua didn't consult you, perhaps he might've gotten the scripture correct.
Acts 17:
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
How can someone repent if they're not already in violation? The only way you can stop breaking the law is if you are breaking the law. This is a pre-existing obligation by definition.
Where does the scripture say John drove away the Pharisees?
Do you own a Bible? If not perhaps I can send you one?

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit that befits repentance, and do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." - Matthew 3:7-10 RSV​
you just spoke for everyone here...
Thistle said:
We simply will be damned for the sins that we actually have committed, if we refuse gospel commands which come from God as he exercises his authority as our Redeemer.
Because it applies to everyone who meets the subjunctive condition.
Jesus trumps Isaiah...
The Holy Spirit is not in conflict with himself. Or did you think that Peter was joking when he said "all scripture is inspired by God."
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

These are your words, my friend...I am asking you where is it written in the scripture. Paul said we must all speak the same thing...
Thistle said:
From God's authority as our Sovereign we are absolutely obligated to obey his moral law. Failure to do that perpetually, cumulatively, and perfectly results in our damnation. From God's authority as our Creator we are obligated to be holy as he is holy, so as not to offend our Creator. Failure to be holy as God is holy results in damnnation, but for grace, to which we are rightly consigned.
I should've said condemnation rather than damnation, because damnation is the final disposition, but with that modification if that's correct.
what rubbish are you spewing?
It's Christian doctrine it's not rubbish.
I said When you are commanded by God to do something you must do it... so when it comes to redemption you are required to obey all God's commands, not just those you choose to obey.
That depends on the nature of what God said.
If the command does not apply to you then it is not a command to you...So how does that negate...
Ephesians 5:6
You tell me. You're the one who's articulated that proposition, not me.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

these are your words...
Thistle said:
You are sinning against God's beneficent grace and mercy toward you. It is categorically different from a sin for which we are properly damned. We are damned for violating our absolute obligations to God not for violating God's beneficent intentions for us.
Is it too much trouble for you to put my words in quotes?
God's intention is for us to not sin.
I believe we can infer that from the fact that sin is the ground or condemnation.
Therefore sinning is violating God's beneficient intentions for us.
Sin is a violation of some absolute obligation that we have to God.
So clearly you are saying that we are not damned for sinning...
Don't quit your day job to become a linguist or a logician.
Lol I said you don't seem to understand ...not it seems to me...in other words, you don't understand.
I do understand. It only "seems" to you that I don't. I know that, because you out of all of the 3 million words in the English Language chose the word "seem." You don't know how anything "seems" to anybody but you. Therefore when anybody uses the word "seem" it is short for "it seems to them." Any broader use of the term is a claim of personal omniscience.
you just said...
Thistle said:
You are sinning against God's beneficent grace and mercy toward you. It is categorically different from a sin for which we are properly damned. We are damned for violating our absolute obligations to God not for violating God's beneficent intentions for us.
that is rebellion
You don't "intend" for a little children to play in the street. But most little children in the world don't even know that you exist. Therefore it's absurd to say that they're rebelling against you. Did you ever take a course in logic?
It applies to you at this point...you think it is OK to violate God's intentions..
That's not what I said. I know how to say that, and if I ever believe that needs to be said, I will. But I don't believe it to be true, so I doubt I'll ever find it necessary to say that.
 
Therefore no one can forbid a water baptism to those who believe. This implies Water Baptism is necessary.
Necessary and commanded of men are not the same thing in this instance. An analogous example is Jesus because He is necessary, but He is not commanded of men. He, like baptism, is freely given and applied to men. And like all freely given promises both can only be received through faith rather than by merit, wage, or by the production of man.
You are implying that Peter is giving command of his own volition and not as a requirement from God...Was Peter commanding them as his personal followers or as followers of God?
Peter was affirming and repeating the command to the already baptized disciples of Christ. The command which they were slow to understand and act upon, hence the vision and the associated event recorded in Acts.
And only those who believe and are baptized will be saved... Therefore baptism is a requirement...
That isn't what Mark 16:16 says. The promise to the already baptized disciples, His missionaries, is that the one who believed and is baptized will be saved. So it is in the love of Christ those already baptized disciples were to go out into the world baptizing and teaching all peoples.

The passage does not say that only those who believed and are baptized will be saved.
You are making an assumption.
No, it is not an assumption. Everyone can know it is a gift by asking and correctly answering the following two questions.

Who is baptism from? It was freely given by God.

Is the one being baptized active or passive? Passive.

Since the one being baptized is passive he can only receive the promises of God in baptism through faith.

Baptism is a command and therefore necessary according to faith. Gospel means good news...and baptism is not a gift it is a command. The gift is the HS
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter saying that in baptism into Christ people will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit doesn't exclude baptism itself from being a freely given promise and gift from God.
 
Joshua 8:1-27
nothing in there about blessing and cursing...
"And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."" - Joshua 24:15 RSV​
nothing there says God left it up to them to choose condemnation.
Pity Joshua didn't consult you, perhaps he might've gotten the scripture correct.
It is a pity you cannot quote the scriptures properly.
How can someone repent if they're not already in violation? The only way you can stop breaking the law is if you are breaking the law. This is a pre-existing obligation by definition.
No one is not in violation before repentance...
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Do you own a Bible? If not perhaps I can send you one?

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit that befits repentance, and do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." - Matthew 3:7-10 RSV​
It does not say he drove them anywhere.
Because it applies to everyone who meets the subjunctive condition.
I don't care who it applies to. You should speak your opinions for yourself.
The Holy Spirit is not in conflict with himself. Or did you think that Peter was joking when he said "all scripture is inspired by God."
How could the Hs be in conflict with himself? It is you who are in conflict with the scripture because Peter did not say that.
I should've said condemnation rather than damnation, because damnation is the final disposition, but with that modification if that's correct.
That does not tell me where it is written in the scripture. Which is what I asked you.
It's Christian doctrine it's not rubbish.
It is rubbish calling it christian doctrine does not change it from rubbish...You cannot show where it is written in the scripture.
That depends on the nature of what God said.
I said when you are commanded by God...What part of commanded by god do you not understand?
You tell me. You're the one who's articulated that proposition, not me.
Actually, you did...
Thistle said:
Everyone is obligated to obey every command that applies to them. But your not obligated to obey a command that applies to me but not you.
Is it too much trouble for you to put my words in quotes?
the link is live
I believe we can infer that from the fact that sin is the ground or condemnation.
exactly...
Sin is a violation of some absolute obligation that we have to God.
Yep...
1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Don't quit your day job to become a linguist or a logician.
I am not the subject of discussion
I do understand. It only "seems" to you that I don't. I know that, because you out of all of the 3 million words in the English Language chose the word "seem." You don't know how anything "seems" to anybody but you. Therefore when anybody uses the word "seem" it is short for "it seems to them." Any broader use of the term is a claim of personal omniscience.
Since you lack understanding...It mean you are giving the impression
You don't "intend" for a little children to play in the street. But most little children in the world don't even know that you exist. Therefore it's absurd to say that they're rebelling against you. Did you ever take a course in logic?
I did not claim that you are rebelling against me. You are rebelling against God...you are teaching that one is not damned for violating God's beneficent intentions for us...
Thistle said:
You are sinning against God's beneficent grace and mercy toward you. It is categorically different from a sin for which we are properly damned. We are damned for violating our absolute obligations to God not for violating God's beneficent intentions for us.

That's not what I said. I know how to say that, and if I ever believe that needs to be said, I will. But I don't believe it to be true, so I doubt I'll ever find it necessary to say that.
Those are your words deal with it...
Thistle said:
You are sinning against God's beneficent grace and mercy toward you. It is categorically different from a sin for which we are properly damned. We are damned for violating our absolute obligations to God not for violating God's beneficent intentions for us.
 
Necessary and commanded of men are not the same thing in this instance. An analogous example is Jesus because He is necessary, but He is not commanded of men. He, like baptism, is freely given and applied to men. And like all freely given promises both can only be received through faith rather than by merit, wage, or by the production of man.
Semantics...you are just playing with words...God commands all men everywhere to repent, baptism goes together with repentance in the first instance.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Peter was affirming and repeating the command to the already baptized disciples of Christ. The command which they were slow to understand and act upon, hence the vision and the associated event recorded in Acts.
Are you saying...Peter was affirming and repeating the command to the already baptized disciples of Christ...to be baptized? You are funny
That isn't what Mark 16:16 says. The promise to the already baptized disciples, His missionaries, is that the one who believed and is baptized will be saved. So it is in the love of Christ those already baptized disciples were to go out into the world baptizing and teaching all peoples.
what nonsense are you saying? there is no mention of a promise in Mk16:16. You are saying that Jesus is telling already baptized disciples if they believe and are baptized they shall be saved. Isn't that what you tell unbelievers?
The passage does not say that only those who believed and are baptized will be saved.
It says those who believe and are baptized shall be saved...that is the only group in the passage who shall be saved. Are you suggesting that there is another group that shall be saved in the passage?
No, it is not an assumption. Everyone can know it is a gift by asking and correctly answering the following two questions.
It is an assumption when you answer the questions correctly...
Who is baptism from? It was freely given by God.
Baptism is from God but he gave man to perform it...
John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Is the one being baptized active or passive? Passive.
the one being baptized is submissive to the command to be baptized. Nowhere in the scripture is anyone offered baptism as a gift...The one being baptized is always in submission, never in the act of receiving.
Since the one being baptized is passive he can only receive the promises of God in baptism through faith.
That is rubbish...the gentiles received the gift of the HS before being baptized.
Peter saying that in baptism into Christ people will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit doesn't exclude baptism itself from being a freely given promise and gift from God.
Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized... But is it not God who ultimately commands all men to repent?
 
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