Babbling Against Tongues

Berserk

Member
Critics of speaking in tongues have no good answer to these 5 points:
(1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues. 2 points establish this teaching:
(a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit (Eph. 6:18)" and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit specified in the Bible (1 Cor. 14:15).
(b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1)" and clarifies this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5).
(c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (! Cor. 4:16; 11:1; Phil. 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (2:4-5; 4:19-20).

(2) Point (1) is not undermined by his preference that we all prophesy (14:5).
(a) Nowhere does Paul claim that tongues is the least of the spiritual gifts. On the contrary, if prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift, speaking in tongues is equally great if it is interpreted (so 14:5). In that sense both gifts are equally great and therefore both should be diligently sought.
(b) What critics overlook is that in 1 Cor. 14 Paul is addressing the specific situation in which believers are speaking in uninterpreted tongues in public worship services at which outsiders are present who are not ready for such unintelligible Spirit manifestations. But Paul encourages speaking in uninterpreted tongues in private prayer sessions (1 Cor. 14:28; cp. 14:4) and in believers-only public meetings (e. g. Acts 19:6).
(c) Believers who dismiss tongues are pointless are in danger of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by implying that some of His gifts are irrelevant and not needed.
I would not be a Christian today, were it not for a mind-bending experience of Spirit baptism at age 16. See my Life Journey thread in the site's Introduction section. If tongues were not important, why does Paul celebrate the fact that he speaks in tongues more than everyone else (14:18)?

(3) Point (1) is not refuted by the false claim based on 12:29-30) that that the gift of tongues is not divinely intended by everyone.
(a) Paul insists that we "can all prophesy one by one (14:31)." Yet the gift of prophesy is included in the gift list cited by critics to support their claim that these gifts are not intended for everyone. So what Paul is instead teaching is this: Look around you: not everyone actually exercises their prophetic potential, but I want all believers to do so.

(4) In 3 of the 4 descriptions of receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts, they demonstrate this by speaking in tongues (2:1-18; 10:44-47; 19:1-6). In the 4th case, tongues are not mentioned, but the experience is so dramatic that Simon the Magician offers Peter money to bestow on him the same power to impart the experience of the Spirit (8:19-20). So it is not unreasonable to presume that the Samaritan converts also spoke in tongues when they received their Spirit baptism. This well-established pattern doesn't mean speaking in tongues is required for Spirit baptism, but it is further evidence that the gift of tongues should be diligently sought (12:31; 14:1).

(5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift. That eruption is identified as prophecy (2:17-18 citing Joel 2:28), but tongues is subsequently distinguished from prophecy (19:5-6; 1 Cor 12 and 14). The tongues in Acts 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 are neither understood nor interpreted. In Greco-Roman parallels speaking in tongues (Greek: "glossai") is understood as ecstatic gibberish that needs a prophet for interpretation. Paul prefers to view this non-human gibberish as angelic language (1 Cor 13:1) and labels tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits (14:12)," a phrase that means "zealots of angels (see Heb 1:7)." Jews in Paul's day embraced the possibility of interpreting angelic languages (e. g. Testament of Job and famous first century Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai).
 

Truther

Well-known member
If it good enough for the Acts church, it is god enough for me.

I feel sorry for folks that have not spoke in or practice tongues.

It is like having no interaction with God on a daily basis.
 

Mik

Well-known member
If it good enough for the Acts church, it is god enough for me.

I feel sorry for folks that have not spoke in or practice tongues.

It is like having no interaction with God on a daily basis.
So those who don't 'speak in or practice tongues' can't interact with God on a daily basis? Wow. How to I get on the pedestal the 'tongue' speakers and those who 'practice tongues' are on?
 

Truther

Well-known member
So those who don't 'speak in or practice tongues' can't interact with God on a daily basis? Wow. How to I get on the pedestal the 'tongue' speakers and those who 'practice tongues' are on?
First, believe that if it is good enough for the Acts church, it is good enogh for you.

Second, ask God to give it to you too.

Third, when it happens, let it flow through you like living waters.

Fourth, thank God every day for tis precious gift and yield to the new found Spirit in your life and practice the gift of the Holy Ghost VIA your human spirit praying per 1 Cor 14.
 

Mik

Well-known member
First, believe that if it is good enough for the Acts church, it is good enogh for you.

Second, ask God to give it to you too.

Third, when it happens, let it flow through you like living waters.

Fourth, thank God every day for tis precious gift and yield to the new found Spirit in your life and practice the gift of the Holy Ghost VIA your human spirit praying per 1 Cor 14.
Thank you. Because apparently I can't 'interact with God on a daily basis' unless I speak and practice tongues. I can see the pedestal at the end of the tunnel! Wonder what the 'lesser' Christians will look like as I will get to view them from above.
 

Truther

Well-known member
Thank you. Because apparently I can't 'interact with God on a daily basis' unless I speak and practice tongues. I can see the pedestal at the end of the tunnel! Wonder what the 'lesser' Christians will look like as I will get to view them from above.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries....

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself...

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,...

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:...

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:...

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord....



Just do it!
 

Mik

Well-known member
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries....

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself...

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,...

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:...

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:...

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord....



Just do it!
Ah. The pick and choose verse response. Leaving out the 'inconvenient' ones. Typical. Maybe it's the air so high up on the pedestal?!? LOL
 

Truther

Well-known member
Ah. The pick and choose verse response. Leaving out the 'inconvenient' ones. Typical. Maybe it's the air so high up on the pedestal?!? LOL
No, just showing you the value of your spirit praying over your conscious thoughts.
 

Mik

Well-known member
I was highlighting the value of tongues.

Must I explain the entire chapter too?

I will if you need me to.
Maybe you should re-read and actually study the chapter without the 'tongues blinder' on before you start 'explaining' what it means.
 

Truther

Well-known member
Maybe you should re-read and actually study the chapter without the 'tongues blinder' on before you start 'explaining' what it means.
It is summarized by this...


38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 

Mik

Well-known member
It is summarized by this...


38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
And?
 

Mik

Well-known member
Critics of speaking in tongues have no good answer to these 5 points:
(1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues. 2 points establish this teaching:
(a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit (Eph. 6:18)" and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit specified in the Bible (1 Cor. 14:15).
(b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1)" and clarifies this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5).
(c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (! Cor. 4:16; 11:1; Phil. 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (2:4-5; 4:19-20).

(2) Point (1) is not undermined by his preference that we all prophesy (14:5).
(a) Nowhere does Paul claim that tongues is the least of the spiritual gifts. On the contrary, if prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift, speaking in tongues is equally great if it is interpreted (so 14:5). In that sense both gifts are equally great and therefore both should be diligently sought.
(b) What critics overlook is that in 1 Cor. 14 Paul is addressing the specific situation in which believers are speaking in uninterpreted tongues in public worship services at which outsiders are present who are not ready for such unintelligible Spirit manifestations. But Paul encourages speaking in uninterpreted tongues in private prayer sessions (1 Cor. 14:28; cp. 14:4) and in believers-only public meetings (e. g. Acts 19:6).
(c) Believers who dismiss tongues are pointless are in danger of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by implying that some of His gifts are irrelevant and not needed.
I would not be a Christian today, were it not for a mind-bending experience of Spirit baptism at age 16. See my Life Journey thread in the site's Introduction section. If tongues were not important, why does Paul celebrate the fact that he speaks in tongues more than everyone else (14:18)?

(3) Point (1) is not refuted by the false claim based on 12:29-30) that that the gift of tongues is not divinely intended by everyone.
(a) Paul insists that we "can all prophesy one by one (14:31)." Yet the gift of prophesy is included in the gift list cited by critics to support their claim that these gifts are not intended for everyone. So what Paul is instead teaching is this: Look around you: not everyone actually exercises their prophetic potential, but I want all believers to do so.

(4) In 3 of the 4 descriptions of receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts, they demonstrate this by speaking in tongues (2:1-18; 10:44-47; 19:1-6). In the 4th case, tongues are not mentioned, but the experience is so dramatic that Simon the Magician offers Peter money to bestow on him the same power to impart the experience of the Spirit (8:19-20). So it is not unreasonable to presume that the Samaritan converts also spoke in tongues when they received their Spirit baptism. This well-established pattern doesn't mean speaking in tongues is required for Spirit baptism, but it is further evidence that the gift of tongues should be diligently sought (12:31; 14:1).

(5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift. That eruption is identified as prophecy (2:17-18 citing Joel 2:28), but tongues is subsequently distinguished from prophecy (19:5-6; 1 Cor 12 and 14). The tongues in Acts 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 are neither understood nor interpreted. In Greco-Roman parallels speaking in tongues (Greek: "glossai") is understood as ecstatic gibberish that needs a prophet for interpretation. Paul prefers to view this non-human gibberish as angelic language (1 Cor 13:1) and labels tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits (14:12)," a phrase that means "zealots of angels (see Heb 1:7)." Jews in Paul's day embraced the possibility of interpreting angelic languages (e. g. Testament of Job and famous first century Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai).
Please study Eph 6:18. Please study what the verse means, not what you want it to mean.
 

Berserk

Member
Please study Eph 6:18. Please study what the verse means, not what you want it to mean.

Your patronizing comment displays both (1) a reading comprehension problem and (2) a misunderstanding of what Paul means by "pray in the Spirit." (1) Your need to read more carefully is demonstrated by your false assumption that I am restricting praying in the Spirit to speaking in tongues. Praying in the Spirit is Spirit-guided prayer that just flows as the Spirit inspires. As such, it can be done in English and cam be practiced by those who "walk in the Spirit" and are "led by the Spirit (Gal. 5:25)." Doing this involves obedience to principles of discipleship, but cannot be reduced tp this because it implies an ongoing mystical relationship with the Spirit that makes all the difference.

(2) Your misunderstanding arises from a failure to distinguish a fleshly approach to speaking in tongues from a Spirit-inspired approach. Many Pentecostal pastors urge seekers to just step out in faith and babble in tongues. This approach just promotes the wishful thinking of the flesh because the seeker has not first learned to pray spontaneously in the Spirit. ,Mastery of the art of praying in the Spirit can take a long time because most believers find it hard to relinquish control of their prayerful thought processes. Thus, Paul warns that praying in the Spirit requires seekers to "stay alert" and "always persevere" in their prayer vigil (Eph. 6:18). In the context, Paul implies that praying in the Spirit is essential for waging effective spiritual warfare (see 6:11-17). The sobering implication is that ordinary ego-directed prayer may be ineffective in waging spiritual warfare.

Most Christians confuse ego-directed prayer with praying in the Spirit. My next post will describe how I learned the difference.
 

Berserk

Member
Really? Do it when, how, etc.?
I just explained how in my how to thread, but you apparently lack reading comprehension.
Notice how Mik openly defies God's Word by disrespecting Paul's desire that we ALL speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14:5) and by treating a gift of the Holy Spirit as junk! Mik, Paul thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else (14:18) in his private prayer language (14:28; cp. 14:4), and obviously views self-edification as a divine treasure. We ALL need to be "built up" (= "edified" in our faith. My first clearly authentic experience of speaking in tongue was the highlight of my life, an experience without which a skeptic like me would not even be a Christian. I was engulfed by wave after wave of liquid love, each more intense than the last, until I feared this love was too powreful to survive because My ego seemed on the verge of being absorbed into God's mind. Unbelievably glorious!
 

Mik

Well-known member
I just explained how in my how to thread, but you apparently lack reading comprehension.
Notice how Mik openly defies God's Word by disrespecting Paul's desire that we ALL speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14:5) and by treating a gift of the Holy Spirit as junk! Mik, Paul thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else (14:18) in his private prayer language (14:28; cp. 14:4), and obviously views self-edification as a divine treasure. We ALL need to be "built up" (= "edified" in our faith. My first clearly authentic experience of speaking in tongue was the highlight of my life, an experience without which a skeptic like me would not even be a Christian. I was engulfed by wave after wave of liquid love, each more intense than the last, until I feared this love was too powreful to survive because My ego seemed on the verge of being absorbed into God's mind. Unbelievably glorious!
Is the air easier to breathe up on your pedestal?
 

Truther

Well-known member
Really? Do it when, how, etc.?
Tongues follows the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost comes through a praise from our inner being.

First repent, then when we finish repenting, ask God to fill you with the Holy Ghost, then begin to praise Him until you feel the power that Jesus spoke of in Acts 1 come upon you per Acts 2.

At that moment in your life, you will be in unison with the Acts 2 church.

After that happens, you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins per verse 38.

You can only be added to the church via water baptism per Acts 2:38-41....


41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 
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