Baltimore Catechism

Mysterium Fidei

Mysterium Fidei

Well-known member
romishpopishorganist said:
I do not, but the Church does.
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Church Councils, saints, popes, theologians, doctors of the Church all have affirmed the doctrine of Limbo. This was the teaching of the Church until after the false Vatican II "council."
romishpopishorganist said:
Please show me a direct quote that answers the very specific question of the fate of unbaptized infants. So far, all you have show me are generalized statements that I do not dispute.
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Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1438: "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments."

Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons, 1274: The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

Who are those who die with original sin only? Who has lived beyond the age of reason that has not committed any actual sin, not even any venial sin? This is talking about infants who die without baptism.
 
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ramcam2

Well-known member
Mysterium Fidei said:
Church Councils, saints, popes, theologians, doctors of the Church all have affirmed the doctrine of Limbo. This was the teaching of the Church until after the false Vatican II "council."

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1438: "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments."

Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons, 1274: The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

Who are those who die with original sin only? Who has lived beyond the age of reason that has not committed any actual sin, not even any venial sin? This is talking about infants who die without baptism.
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limbo is not a defined doctrine of the church until today.
those who die in the state of original sin implies no heaven as well as those who die without actual sin implies no hell.
one is free to believe what he likes but one must take into consideration God's mercy and justice.
 
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ramcam2

Well-known member
Atemi said:
You don't know that. Your sect leaders have not yet provided you with an official, infallible list of all defined doctrines they teach or that you must believe.
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maybe so, but there are ways one will know if a doctrine/teaching is infallibly defined.
 
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romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Mysterium Fidei said:
Church Councils, saints, popes, theologians, doctors of the Church all have affirmed the doctrine of Limbo. This was the teaching of the Church until after the false Vatican II "council."

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1438: "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments."

Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons, 1274: The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

Who are those who die with original sin only? Who has lived beyond the age of reason that has not committed any actual sin, not even any venial sin? This is talking about infants who die without baptism.
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Yet it does not specifically reference infants who die without baptism, does it? These are generalized statements.

Sir, again, I am not saying unbaptized infants do or do NOT go to heaven.

All I am asserting is that we need not abandon all hope for unbaptized infants.

God has commanded water baptism and linked it with salvation, therefore we do it.

But I am not going to make an assertion in the other direction and say "Therefore those who through no fault of their own die before water baptism, such as unbaptized infants cannot go to heaven."

I believe Baptism is necessary for salvation, but that is all the assertion I will make. What happens to the unbaptized, especially infants? That is up to God. I commend them to God's love and mercy. I see no need to make some kind of infallible pronouncement that we must abandon all hope for them. Salvation is in God's hands, sir, not the hands of the Church, not YOUR hands, not MY hands. I refuse to pronounce on what God may or may not do, sir. You seem to like telling God what he may or may not do.

I continue to ask, and you seem either unable or unwilling to tell me why commending the unbaptized, especially unbaptized infants to God's love and mercy is bad, and why not ruling out the possibility of salvation for them is bad.

Why can we not just say "Baptism is necessary for salvation" and leave it at that. Why do we have to pronounce anything about the unbaptized? Why not just say "That is up to God?"
 
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romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Mysterium Fidei said:
Yes you do. Your great "saint" Wojtyła explicitly and repeatedly taught universal salvation.

Limbo is the defined teaching of the Church. There was no debate about the existence of Limbo in the Church, but rather about whether or not souls that go there suffer any pain or loss. The Augustinian view was that they did suffer, however mildly, some or some loss of the sense of the Beatific vision. St. Thomas and others held that in Limbo souls are in a state of positive happiness in which the soul is united to God by a knowledge and love of him proportionate to nature's capacity.
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Give me ONE official definition that Limbo exists and that this is an article of Faith that Catholics MUST believe as an article of Faith. Statements from private theologians, however brilliant they were, do not qualify.

Yes, Limbo was common belief. What I want you to do is show me where the Church ever said--it is a defined article of Faith that MUST be believed by Catholics.
 
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romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Mysterium Fidei said:
You really are clueless, aren't you? These are not "generalized statements." This is not the idle ramblings of some idiot apostate "pope" flying back to Rome from after taking part in some native pagan ritual.

This teaching of the fate of the unbaptized infants I posted is from two ecumenical councils of the Church presided over and approved by two popes. It is listed in Denzinger's Sources of Catholic Dogmas.
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Fine. Show me where it specifically pronounces on the fate of unbaptized infants.
Mysterium Fidei said:
Not that the teaching of the Church means anything to you and your religion of opinions.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1438: "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments."
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Where does this say anything about the fate of unbaptized infants? Where does this tell us that God cannot saved them?
Mysterium Fidei said:
Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons, 1274: The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

Who are those who die with original sin only? Who has lived beyond the age of reason that has not committed any actual sin, not even any venial sin? This is talking about infants who die without baptism.
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Again, where does this pronounce on the specific question of infants who through no fault of their own were unable to seek baptized or accept the Gospel?

If you can show me ONE statement that pronounce on the very specific question of unbaptized infants--that God cannot save, or they cannot be saved, them becasue they are not baptized---I will admit I am wrong and stop posting on this issue. Give me just ONE statement that we must abandon all hope for unbaptized infants.
 
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balshan

Well-known member
ramcam2 said:
wrong.
we have an infallible authority, in his church, the pillar and foundation of truth.
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Wrong you have a very, very fallible authority and it is not HIS church NOR is the pillar and foundation of truth. It fails the good tree test and the only scriptural test it passes is the bad tree test. The behaviour of your leaders show they do NOT follow the apostles.
 
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romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Mysterium Fidei said:
Church Councils, saints, popes, theologians, doctors of the Church all have affirmed the doctrine of Limbo. This was the teaching of the Church until after the false Vatican II "council."

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1438: "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments."
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Correct. I am not disputing this. Where does this quote say anything about infants who did without baptism through no fault of their own? Where does this quote say that we must abandon all hope for unbaptized infants? What am I missing here? I see nothing in that quote about unbaptized infants.
Mysterium Fidei said:
Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons, 1274: The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

Who are those who die with original sin only?
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Those whom God has not saved by Grace either by water baptism, or some other means known to God alone.
Mysterium Fidei said:
Who has lived beyond the age of reason that has not committed any actual sin, not even any venial sin? This is talking about infants who die without baptism.
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Funny---that this quote is supposed to be talking about unbaptized infants, yet "unbaptized infants" isn't used in the quote.
 
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romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Mysterium Fidei said:
Yes you do. Your great "saint" Wojtyła explicitly and repeatedly taught universal salvation.

Limbo is the defined teaching of the Church.
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And yet, you, the master of "If you have an issue, I have a quote," the one who never met an issue he didn't have a quote for have provided NOTHING in the way of pope or council officially defining the doctrine of LIMBO, much less binding Catholics to believe the doctrine as an article of Faith.

At least with the question of infant baptism you gave me SOMETHING. Sure they were just generalized quotes--but at least it was SOMETHING.

Here you do not even attempt to give me something!
Mysterium Fidei said:
There was no debate about the existence of Limbo in the Church, but rather about whether or not souls that go there suffer any pain or loss.
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I never denied that LIMBO was a common belief. I never denied that theologians debated the issue. What I am denying is that LIMBO was an OFFICIAL DEFINED TEACHING of the Church that Catholics were bound to believe as an ARTICLE OF FAITH.
Mysterium Fidei said:
The Augustinian view was that they did suffer, however mildly, some or some loss of the sense of the Beatific vision.
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Correct. What does this have to do with anything? Since when are we bound to Augustine's theological speculations?
Mysterium Fidei said:
St. Thomas and others held that in Limbo souls are in a state of positive happiness in which the soul is united to God by a knowledge and love of him proportionate to nature's capacity.
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Correct. What does this have to do with anything? Since when are we bound to the theological speculations of Thomas?
 
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