Baptism; After Salvation

Saxon

Active member
Believers

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

John 10:42 And many believed on him there.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

Acts 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Believing in Christ secures salvation

John 3:15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:39 and by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 9:33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The above scripture says that believers are those that believe in Jesus Christ and confirm that he is the Christ. Also, believing in Christ secures the salvation that he, himself (Christ) provided.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace through faith.

Grace being God’s unmerited favour. Unmerited makes it impossible to obtain salvation by any means of personal activity that is initiated by yourselves or anyone acting on your behalf. You can do nothing that will move God to save you, but by his attitude of grace towards you, God is more that simply willing to save you; he has a strong desire, motivated by love to save you.

Through faith is Believing in Christ. Believing is our act of faith. Believing, in itself, does not save anyone. Romans 10:14 asks, “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?” All our believing does is motivate us to call on a God that we, by believing in him, know exists. God has even set this up for our good in that he has revealed himself to us who would not know that he is.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

After we believe and are saved, we are now his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works; obey Christ. After salvation we are to participate in baptism, the Lord’s supper, and doing what is the Will of God, which is to live a Christian life to bring him glory and honour for what he has done for us. We do not do this to become saved, but because we are saved by the grace of God, not of ourselves as it is a gift and not by the works that we were saved to do.
 

Saxon

Active member
I would think if water baptism is a requirement for salvation there would be a chapter or two explaining that to be the case.
And all the verses that are quoted would have to mention baptism. As it currently reads baptism is not eluded to salvation let alone a requirement. I don't see any amendments in the near future.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
And all the verses that are quoted would have to mention baptism. As it currently reads baptism is not eluded to salvation let alone a requirement. I don't see any amendments in the near future.

How did you put your faith in Christ?

Formulating a thought in your head?
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Like the doctrine of the Trinity?

Chapters please.
The doctrine of the Trinity explains why the bible say God is one...and why they bible presents the Father as God, Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.

I see the connection you;re trying to make...but knowing what the Trinity is isn't the Gospel.
 

Saxon

Active member
That doesn't explain how you put your faith in Christ. Want to try again?
Believing is putting your faith in Christ. Believing allows you to put your trust in Christ, Trust allows you to put your faith in Christ by obeying him.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
So like the demons, you believe that God exists.
I believe that God exists, but unlike the demons I have faith in Christ. (Your attempt at manipulating scripture show that you are ignorant of scripture.)
And that's your faith?
My faith is the Christian faith. Are you wanting to know my denominational association?
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
And all the verses that are quoted would have to mention baptism. As it currently reads baptism is not eluded to salvation let alone a requirement. I don't see any amendments in the near future.
SO - when I was born again (in my bedroom on a Wednesday night in 1963), my Salvation was a "done deal" - no water required. And 4 days later, on profession of FAITH in the Baptist church I landed in, I was Baptised by immersion once in the three titles. Greenwood BAptist CHurch in Pasadena, TX in the early '60s was unique - when you went forward at the invitation, they asked you WHO had led you to the Lord out "in the field", because all the converts were won that way - not in the church. never saw another church that ran that way.

Nothing changed (except my clothes) after my baptism of course. I was born again going in, and just as born again coming out. I had a certain "feeling" that I'd been obedient - at least to the Baptist paradigm about baptism, and 58 years later I'm STILL Born again, moving in HIS light, showing spiritual growth, and walking in peace.

WHY was I baptized?? because I felt that the Bible indicated I SHOULD be after I was Born again. Any deeper spiritual reason than that?? Nah. Yes I know and understand the Symbology of it (Crucified with Christ / Raised in newness of life - New Testament version of "Circuncision" - etc.). Baptists consider it an EXTERNAL TESTIMONY, of what happened INTERNALLY. That's good enough for me.
 

Hark

Well-known member
After we believe and are saved, we are now his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works; obey Christ.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd after we have been saved, is how He helps us to follow Him. That is how we obey Him.
After salvation we are to participate in baptism, the Lord’s supper, and doing what is the Will of God, which is to live a Christian life to bring him glory and honour for what he has done for us. We do not do this to become saved, but because we are saved by the grace of God, not of ourselves as it is a gift and not by the works that we were saved to do.
We are to take heed on what we build on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ, because heresy is a work of the flesh that can deny Him & defile the Temple of God. Unless we look to Jesus Christ in being our Good Shepherd to help us to discern good & evil by His words in the KJV so He can help us to lay aside every weight & sin follow Him, then we allow either ourselves, others, or the church to mislead us from following Him.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Crowns are not the only loss that can occur from being disqualified from the race; but becoming a castaway. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House. Those carnal believers & former believers left behind are still saved but they will die, and their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven, but awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor.


1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is why we are to call even former believers to go to Jesus Christ for help to see the truth in His words that exposes the lies in the world and false teachings that turned them away from Him so they too may repent by His grace & by His help, & obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation, and that is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House to qualify to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So how we obey Him is key; do we look to ourselves to do the best we can to obey Him or do we obey Him by believing He is our Good Shepherd & He will help us to follow Him by laying aside every weight & sin with our confidence in Him to finish His work in us.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 

Saxon

Active member
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd after we have been saved, is how He helps us to follow Him. That is how we obey Him.

We are to take heed on what we build on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ, because heresy is a work of the flesh that can deny Him & defile the Temple of God. Unless we look to Jesus Christ in being our Good Shepherd to help us to discern good & evil by His words in the KJV so He can help us to lay aside every weight & sin follow Him, then we allow either ourselves, others, or the church to mislead us from following Him.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Crowns are not the only loss that can occur from being disqualified from the race; but becoming a castaway. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House. Those carnal believers & former believers left behind are still saved but they will die, and their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven, but awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor.


1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is why we are to call even former believers to go to Jesus Christ for help to see the truth in His words that exposes the lies in the world and false teachings that turned them away from Him so they too may repent by His grace & by His help, & obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation, and that is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House to qualify to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So how we obey Him is key; do we look to ourselves to do the best we can to obey Him or do we obey Him by believing He is our Good Shepherd & He will help us to follow Him by laying aside every weight & sin with our confidence in Him to finish His work in us.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
You don't seem to relate to the concept of before salvation, salvation and living in salvation. You seem to stop at being saved and not go on to be the Christian that you were saved to be. Obeying Christ is actually doing what he has commanded. You seem to think that there is no works to be done, you just sit on your backside and wait to die.

What does it mean, "created in Christ Jesus unto good works"? It means that God has works that you and I are to do. This doesn't mean that we are to work for our salvation, but rather, we are to work because we ARE saved to obey Christ. If you are a Christian then you live a Christian life and that involves doing what Jesus has commanded.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Hark

Well-known member
You don't seem to relate to the concept of before salvation, salvation and living in salvation. You seem to stop at being saved and not go on to be the Christian that you were saved to be. Obeying Christ is actually doing what he has commanded. You seem to think that there is no works to be done, you just sit on your backside and wait to die.

What does it mean, "created in Christ Jesus unto good works"? It means that God has works that you and I are to do. This doesn't mean that we are to work for our salvation, but rather, we are to work because we ARE saved to obey Christ. If you are a Christian then you live a Christian life and that involves doing what Jesus has commanded.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Note we are His workmanship and consider how I apply that to mean.

I am acknowledging how we have been reconciled with God thru Jesus Christ by believing in Him for when we were saved at the calling of the gospel and now afterwards & presently, we are to live that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ, trusting Him as our Good Shepherd to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily, walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

That is why it is written that the just shall live by faith.

So all that water baptism, and learning of Him more and more so our love abounds daily, and what it is we are trusting Him to finish in us to His glory is how we live by faith in Him as we obey Him by believing Him to be our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. So trust Him today.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Believing is putting your faith in Christ. Believing allows you to put your trust in Christ, Trust allows you to put your faith in Christ by obeying him.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I believe that God exists, but unlike the demons I have faith in Christ. (Your attempt at manipulating scripture show that you are ignorant of scripture.)

My faith is the Christian faith. Are you wanting to know my denominational association?

I see. You don't even know what faith is.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Believers

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

John 10:42 And many believed on him there.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

Acts 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Believing in Christ secures salvation

John 3:15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:39 and by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 9:33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The above scripture says that believers are those that believe in Jesus Christ and confirm that he is the Christ. Also, believing in Christ secures the salvation that he, himself (Christ) provided.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace through faith.

Grace being God’s unmerited favour. Unmerited makes it impossible to obtain salvation by any means of personal activity that is initiated by yourselves or anyone acting on your behalf. You can do nothing that will move God to save you, but by his attitude of grace towards you, God is more that simply willing to save you; he has a strong desire, motivated by love to save you.

Through faith is Believing in Christ. Believing is our act of faith. Believing, in itself, does not save anyone. Romans 10:14 asks, “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?” All our believing does is motivate us to call on a God that we, by believing in him, know exists. God has even set this up for our good in that he has revealed himself to us who would not know that he is.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

After we believe and are saved, we are now his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works; obey Christ. After salvation we are to participate in baptism, the Lord’s supper, and doing what is the Will of God, which is to live a Christian life to bring him glory and honour for what he has done for us. We do not do this to become saved, but because we are saved by the grace of God, not of ourselves as it is a gift and not by the works that we were saved to do.
Nothing you posted changes what Scripture says about baptism, for example, none of those passages insert a relative pronoun into Mark 16:16, or changes the words of 1 Peter 3:21, etc.

Mark 16:16 says, he that believed and was baptized shall be saved. There is no relative pronoun in that passage which would change the meaning to, he that believed this [other thing] and is baptized shall be saved. Nor does the passage indicate an order.

The basic meaning of 1 Peter 3:21-22 is that baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ. If a person reads that passage as if it is meant to mean something other than what it says then that person will misunderstand the passage. And as a consequence he will deny what the Lord has given him to believe.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Nothing you posted changes what Scripture says about baptism, for example, none of those passages insert a relative pronoun into Mark 16:16, or changes the words of 1 Peter 3:21, etc.
It is an assumption to believe those verses are referring to water baptism and not the baptism of the Holy Ghost at our salvation as being born of the Spirit..

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith...26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

One can be water baptized and not be saved as in not receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation yet as the case of the Samaritans being delivered from unclean spirits as Philip was ministering, being fans of Philip rather than coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for salvation..

Acts 8:5-17

Paul deferred from the importance of water baptism for the preaching of the cross is how God saves any one when they believe in Him.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...........21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

As you note the deviation from water baptism to believing the preaching of the cross is how God saves those that believe.
Mark 16:16 says, he that believed and was baptized shall be saved. There is no relative pronoun in that passage which would change the meaning to, he that believed this [other thing] and is baptized shall be saved. Nor does the passage indicate an order.
We see in Acts 10 how the Gentiles were saved before water baptism. It is emphasized in Mark 16:16 that not believing is how they are damned. It is not inferring water baptism at all but the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation when we first believe in Him.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The basic meaning of 1 Peter 3:21-22 is that baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ. If a person reads that passage as if it is meant to mean something other than what it says then that person will misunderstand the passage. And as a consequence he will deny what the Lord has given him to believe.
Water is used for the washing away of the filth of the flesh, and so it is not referring to "water" baptism, but an answer of a good conscience before God by believing in Him is how that baptism as in that promise of the baptism with the Holy Ghost comes on the new believer.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So in regards to those 2 references which you cited as referring to water baptism, those 2 references were actually referring to the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation by faith in Jesus Christ; the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our born of the Spirit moment as a new believer..
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
It is an assumption to believe those verses are referring to water baptism and not the baptism of the Holy Ghost at our salvation as being born of the Spirit..

No it isn't. The consistent testimony of Scripture is...

Water baptism - death with Christ
Spirit baptism - resurrection life with Christ

Death before resurrection.

Water baptism, dying with Christ, is how we put our trust in him - by dying together with him trusting that God will raise us up to new life just as He raised up Jesus to a new life.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith...26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

One can be water baptized and not be saved as in not receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation yet as the case of the Samaritans being delivered from unclean spirits as Philip was ministering, being fans of Philip rather than coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for salvation..

Acts 8:5-17

Paul deferred from the importance of water baptism for the preaching of the cross is how God saves any one when they believe in Him.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...........21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

As you note the deviation from water baptism to believing the preaching of the cross is how God saves those that believe.

We see in Acts 10 how the Gentiles were saved before water baptism. It is emphasized in Mark 16:16 that not believing is how they are damned. It is not inferring water baptism at all but the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation when we first believe in Him.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Water is used for the washing away of the filth of the flesh, and so it is not referring to "water" baptism, but an answer of a good conscience before God by believing in Him is how that baptism as in that promise of the baptism with the Holy Ghost comes on the new believer.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So in regards to those 2 references which you cited as referring to water baptism, those 2 references were actually referring to the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation by faith in Jesus Christ; the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our born of the Spirit moment as a new believer..
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
It is an assumption to believe those verses are referring to water baptism and not the baptism of the Holy Ghost at our salvation as being born of the Spirit..

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith...26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

One can be water baptized and not be saved as in not receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation yet as the case of the Samaritans being delivered from unclean spirits as Philip was ministering, being fans of Philip rather than coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for salvation..

Acts 8:5-17

Paul deferred from the importance of water baptism for the preaching of the cross is how God saves any one when they believe in Him.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...........21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

As you note the deviation from water baptism to believing the preaching of the cross is how God saves those that believe.

We see in Acts 10 how the Gentiles were saved before water baptism. It is emphasized in Mark 16:16 that not believing is how they are damned. It is not inferring water baptism at all but the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation when we first believe in Him.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Water is used for the washing away of the filth of the flesh, and so it is not referring to "water" baptism, but an answer of a good conscience before God by believing in Him is how that baptism as in that promise of the baptism with the Holy Ghost comes on the new believer.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So in regards to those 2 references which you cited as referring to water baptism, those 2 references were actually referring to the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation by faith in Jesus Christ; the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our born of the Spirit moment as a new believer..
So although it is redundant to post this it is apparently necessary because nothing you posted inserts a relative pronoun into Mark 16:16, or changes the words of 1 Peter 3:21, etc.

What you have done is pit faith against what the Lord has given us to believe and attempted to ignore the actual context of Mark 16:16, both of which are errors.

You stopped one verse shy of a right understanding of baptism and it's relationship to faith in Galatians 3. Paul is assigning reason or cause at the beginning of verses twenty six and twenty seven with the word translated as for. Just follow his reasoning to its end in this regard in verse 27.

"Therefore the law was our]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Lastly, God's name is not being hallowed, a violation of the commandment, when people choose to deny the promises of baptism in His name.
 
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101G

Well-known member
The ordinance of Water Baptism,

An ordinance is a religious ritual whose intent is to demonstrate an adherent's faith. as in baptism and, or the Lord's Supper.

supportive scripture, Luke 20:1 "And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders," Luke 20:2 "And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?" Luke 20:3 "And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:" Luke 20:4 "The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?" Luke 20:5 "And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?" Luke 20:6 "But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet." Luke 20:7 "And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was." Luke 20:8 "And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things."

This was a new ordinance, a religious ritual of cleasing, which they knew full well, but not in this way, and John must have his authority for administering it either from God, or from men. and John clearly gave his authority, John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.". NOTICE, John said he was sent "FROM" God not sent by God, but "FROM", right there he John declared his authority.

So water Baptism is not of MEN, but is an ordinance of GOD. for obedience is better than sacrifice. and this ordinance is to be obeyed, meaning one must be "alive" to obey it.

and Baptism, either "WITH" water, or "WITH" the Spirit can come before or after each other. but NOTICE the difference, "WITH" vs "of", these two meaning are very important.

the OP gives are some goodclear example, Acts 8:35 "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus." Acts 8:36 "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" Acts 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:38 "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

For the scriptures are clear, Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Now, the Baptism of the Spirit before water Baptism.

Acts 10:1 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band," Acts 10:2 "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." Acts 10:3 "He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius." Acts 10:4 "And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God."

here, in verse 4, Captain Cornelius is "SAVED", who do we know this? answer, for the angel said, "Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.". this word memorial is the Greek word,
G3422 μνημόσυνον mnemosunon (mnee-mo-sï '-non) n.
a reminder (memorandum), i.e. record.
[from G3421]
KJV: memorial
Root(s): G3421

a reminder (memorandum), i.e. record?. Yes, his name was already writeen in the Lamb book of Life, God's choosing. supportive scripture,

Malachi 3:16 "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name."
Malachi 3:17 "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."

two things to note,
A. a book of remembrance? yes, a memorial, meaning to REMEMBER, as the thief on the cross asked the Lord Jesus to "REMEMBER" him.
so Captain Cornelius was SAVED, but yet Not Water Baptized

B. the reason why we know he was saved, your name is NOT WRITTEN in the BOOK unless God accept you, and Malachi 3:17 tells us clearly, "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."

if you're the Lord's as Malachi 3:17 clearly states, then you're saved.

now the Captain ordinance of Baptism "WITH" , SPIRIT First, and then "WITH" WATER. Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." .......
Acts 10:44 "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." Acts 10:45 "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."

now "With" Water, Acts 10:46 "For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter," Acts 10:47 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

so the Captain, was baptized "WITH" the Holy Ghost, before he was Baptized "with" water.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Hark

Well-known member
So although it is redundant to post this it is apparently necessary because nothing you posted inserts a relative pronoun into Mark 16:16, or changes the words of 1 Peter 3:21, etc.
And yet for Mark 16:16, it is by not believing is how they are condemned without any special emphasis on being water baptized as to be saved. So you do not know if that baptism referring to God's baptism with the Holy Ghost.

And since Peter went through so much trouble deferring from water as that is what is used to put away the filth of the flesh and emphasizing by believing in Jesus Christ which is the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ is how one is baptized by God.
What you have done is pit faith against what the Lord has given us to believe and attempted to ignore the actual context of Mark 16:16, both of which are errors.
What you are ignoring by all those scripture pointing that by believing in Him is how we are saved, not by making sure there is water around for water baptism, as if believing the preaching of the cross is not the power of God to save anyone that believes. Paul practically deferred from it which should not be ignored since it reproves your specific ideology.
You stopped one verse shy of a right understanding of baptism and it's relationship to faith in Galatians 3. Paul is assigning reason or cause at the beginning of verses twenty six and twenty seven with the word translated as for. Just follow his reasoning to its end in this regard in verse 27.

"Therefore the law was our]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
You are still reading that as water baptism when by faith in Jesus Christ is how we are all baptized in Christ having put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Lastly, God's name is not being hallowed, a violation of the commandment, when people choose to deny the promises of baptism in His name.
Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciple. Scripture denies that salvation is achieved by water baptism but by believing in Jesus Christ. That is the power of God in salvation otherwise, salvation would be achieved by preaching water baptism in Jesus's name without ever believing in Jesus Christ and so that would only conform to the world to an outward appearance as the Pharisees & the religious Jews were doing at John the Baptist's water baptism for what John the Baptist was chewing them out for.
 
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