Baptism; After Salvation

BJ Bear

Well-known member
And yet for Mark 16:16, it is by not believing is how they are condemned without any special emphasis on being water baptized as to be saved. So you do not know if that baptism referring to God's baptism with the Holy Ghost.
Since there is no relative pronoun in search of an antecedent in Mark 16:16 it is pure imaginative error to pretend there is one. Mark 16:16 does not say or imply, "The one who believed this [other thing] and is baptized shall be saved..."
And since Peter went through so much trouble deferring from water as that is what is used to put away the filth of the flesh and emphasizing by believing in Jesus Christ which is the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ is how one is baptized by God.
The parenthetical thought states that baptism is not this but that, so the question is what is acting nominative and what is the passive object receiving the action in, "baptism does now save you." The acting nominative is baptism and the passive object receiving the action is you.
What you are ignoring by all those scripture pointing that by believing in Him is how we are saved, not by making sure there is water around for water baptism, as if believing the preaching of the cross is not the power of God to save anyone that believes. Paul practically deferred from it which should not be ignored since it reproves your specific ideology.
That is a misunderstanding of Paul since baptism into Christ is not contrary to the cross of Christ. See Romans 6.
You are still reading that as water baptism when by faith in Jesus Christ is how we are all baptized in Christ having put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I've read Galatians 3 according to it's immediate context rather than use some other text to import an alien idea. Baptism into Christ is the work of God.
Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciple. Scripture denies that salvation is achieved by water baptism but by believing in Jesus Christ. That is the power of God in salvation otherwise, salvation would be achieved by preaching water baptism in Jesus's name without ever believing in Jesus Christ and so that would only conform to the world to an outward appearance as the Pharisees & the religious Jews were doing at John the Baptist's water baptism for what John the Baptist was chewing them out for.
Your argument is with Scripture. For example, Scripture says baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, but you say that would mean, "salvation would be achieved by preaching water baptism in Jesus's name without ever believing in Jesus Christ."

You're still trying to separate faith, a noun, from what the Lord has given us to believe, a necessary part of the Christian revelation.
 
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Nic

Well-known member
Are you the real BJ Bear who is the author of the following excellent resource, or someone else ? I ask because there is an imposter trolling me at Carm also, calling himself “ John Milton.”
Click bait maybe? Or as you say an imposter? BJ Bear is an adult Christian convert who upholds the Trinity.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Are you the real BJ Bear who is the author of the following excellent resource, or someone else ? I ask because there is an imposter trolling me at Carm also, calling himself “ John Milton.”
What Nic said, definitely not me but I doubt impersonation was a goal or intent. My original nic long ago was bj -bear.
 
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BJ Bear

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Click bait maybe? Or as you say an imposter? BJ Bear is an adult Christian convert who upholds the Trinity.
Thanks, Nic! I prefer the old days when my nic was BJ -Bear, as in bj is not a bear. One of the board upgrades along the way ceased to allow the dash.
 
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Hark

Well-known member
Since there is no relative pronoun in search of an antecedent in Mark 16:16 it is pure imaginative error to pretend there is one. Mark 16:16 does not say or imply, "The one who believed this [other thing] and is baptized shall be saved..."
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Did verse 14 in context puts the belief in Him in verse 16 plainly enough for you?

Just how are you applying the rest of His words in context? Is it the same way you apply verse 16? Do note that this is before His ascension where none of them have been saved yet. Are you going to apply signs just as literal as water baptism here that you assume it to be?

It was at Pentecost when they got saved by being baptized with the Holy Ghost at their salvation. They did not baptize with water again when they were already baptized. Judas Iscariot was not a believer, even though he was water baptized. He had died for why he was not among them.
The parenthetical thought states that baptism is not this but that, so the question is what is acting nominative and what is the passive object receiving the action in, "baptism does now save you." The acting nominative is baptism and the passive object receiving the action is you.
But how was this baptism achieved? By the answer of a good conscience towards God by believing the resurrection f Jesus Christ. Therefore what is the point of deferring from what puts away the filth of the flesh which is what water does, other than deferring from water baptism.
That is a misunderstanding of Paul since baptism into Christ is not contrary to the cross of Christ. See Romans 6.
Paul did not misunderstood anything when Jesus said the same thing to Nicodemus on how one is born again of the Spirit by believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life. See John 3rd chapter.
I've read Galatians 3 according to it's immediate context rather than use some other text to import an alien idea. Baptism into Christ is the work of God.
Not man's work; not church's work. The baptism of the Holy Ghost at our salvation is God the Father's work in Jesus's name.
Your argument is with Scripture. For example, Scripture says baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, but you say that would mean, "salvation would be achieved by preaching water baptism in Jesus's name without ever believing in Jesus Christ."

You're still trying to separate faith, a noun, from what the Lord has given us to believe, a necessary part of the Christian revelation.
To clarify, it is by believing the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the answer of a good conscience towards God is how one is saved as in born again of the Spirit as in receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation moment; hence the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

To put God's work into man's hands is by limiting God's hand in salvation to water baptism as if He cannot save those who believe without it and that is just not the truth as found in His words..
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd after we have been saved, is how He helps us to follow Him. That is how we obey Him.

We are to take heed on what we build on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ, because heresy is a work of the flesh that can deny Him & defile the Temple of God. Unless we look to Jesus Christ in being our Good Shepherd to help us to discern good & evil by His words in the KJV so He can help us to lay aside every weight & sin follow Him, then we allow either ourselves, others, or the church to mislead us from following Him.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Crowns are not the only loss that can occur from being disqualified from the race; but becoming a castaway. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House. Those carnal believers & former believers left behind are still saved but they will die, and their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven, but awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor.


1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is why we are to call even former believers to go to Jesus Christ for help to see the truth in His words that exposes the lies in the world and false teachings that turned them away from Him so they too may repent by His grace & by His help, & obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation, and that is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House to qualify to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So how we obey Him is key; do we look to ourselves to do the best we can to obey Him or do we obey Him by believing He is our Good Shepherd & He will help us to follow Him by laying aside every weight & sin with our confidence in Him to finish His work in us.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Before you post scripture, make sure you know what it means. 2 Timothy 2:10 says this:

2 Timothy 2:10
New American Standard Bible

10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of [a]those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

You posted the KJV. The KJV is not completely reflective of the condition of the elect. But it's not wrong either. There is a period of time between being chosen before the foundation of the world and regeneration. It's just not as clear as the NASB.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Before you post scripture, make sure you know what it means. 2 Timothy 2:10 says this:

2 Timothy 2:10​

New American Standard Bible​

10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of [a]those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

You posted the KJV. The KJV is not completely reflective of the condition of the elect. But it's not wrong either. There is a period of time between being chosen before the foundation of the world and regeneration. It's just not as clear as the NASB.
If you compare 2 Timothy 2:10 with 2 Timothy 2:20, He may help you to see that the eternal glory that we hope in Him to obtain that comes with our salvation is to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Those who heed the call to go to Jesus Christ for help in discerning good & evil by the meats of His words as kept in the KJV so they can lean on Him for help to depart from iniquity, thus being made ready by Him to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House.

Those who are saved but have gone astray and sowing to the works of the flesh are at risk of being disqualified to be partakers in the firstfruits of the resurrection and thus left behind to die for being workers of iniquity but their spirits will be with the Lord waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation. This is where the vessels unto dishonor are from that are still in His House along with new believers after the rapture.

The vessel unto honor is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation; that is what running the race is all about which is by applying faith & hope in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend in following Him all the way Home to the Marriage Supper above. This is the high prize of our calling for why the loss of the rewards of crowns is not the only consequence for not running that race by faith; but being a castaway is.

Although the gospel can be preached in all Bible versions and some but not all corrections can be done with Him in modern bibles, it is the KJV that I find with His help, that maintained all the meat in His words for all the false teachings that needs to be reproved that modern bibles do not have for all of them. That is why, thanks to Jesus Christ, I have come to rely on the KJV for keeping the faith which is the good fight.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
If you compare 2 Timothy 2:10 with 2 Timothy 2:20, He may help you to see that the eternal glory that we hope in Him to obtain that comes with our salvation is to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Those who heed the call to go to Jesus Christ for help in discerning good & evil by the meats of His words as kept in the KJV so they can lean on Him for help to depart from iniquity, thus being made ready by Him to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House.

Those who are saved but have gone astray and sowing to the works of the flesh are at risk of being disqualified to be partakers in the firstfruits of the resurrection and thus left behind to die for being workers of iniquity but their spirits will be with the Lord waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation. This is where the vessels unto dishonor are from that are still in His House along with new believers after the rapture.

The vessel unto honor is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation; that is what running the race is all about which is by applying faith & hope in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend in following Him all the way Home to the Marriage Supper above. This is the high prize of our calling for why the loss of the rewards of crowns is not the only consequence for not running that race by faith; but being a castaway is.

Although the gospel can be preached in all Bible versions and some but not all corrections can be done with Him in modern bibles, it is the KJV that I find with His help, that maintained all the meat in His words for all the false teachings that needs to be reproved that modern bibles do not have for all of them. That is why, thanks to Jesus Christ, I have come to rely on the KJV for keeping the faith which is the good fight.

There you go again, removing scripture from its context. This is a completely unacceptable way to interpret scripture, and, you know it.
 

Hark

Well-known member
There you go again, removing scripture from its context. This is a completely unacceptable way to interpret scripture, and, you know it.
Well, have you considered the difference between a vessel unto honor & the vessel unto dishonor? Read verse 21 where if the believer departed from iniquity, he becomes that vessel unto honor as being ready to be received by the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the vessels unto dishonor for why they are called vessels unto dishonor is for being workers of iniquity, thus not abiding in Him nor ready to go thus "disqualified" and reprobates, for why they are left behind, denied by Him because any iniquity on that foundation that denies Him thus defiling the temple of God will be left behind, unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes. Salvation is not lost, but being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection is that loss in becoming a castaway and not just losing the rewards of crowns.

That is the eternal glory in verse 10 of being received as that vessel unto honor in His House that comes with our salvation. It is a damnation to saved believers left behind for they will be vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come. That is why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth for then they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House once the doors to the Marriage Supper is closed, but they are still in His House as vessels unto dishonor as they will testify to the glory of God in salvation for all those that believe, even in His name as they shall serve the King of kings in raising up the generations following in the 1000 year reign of Christ's on earth.

If you still disagree, then explain verses 19-21 for how a vessel unto dishonor can still be in His House, even former believers if you take in verse 18 also as well as that faithful saying in verses 11-13.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred,
saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So even former believers are still to be called to depart from iniquity before He comes because He still abides as 2 Timothy 2:13 testify.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Did verse 14 in context puts the belief in Him in verse 16 plainly enough for you?
Your latest question is a tacit admission that you were unable to find a relative pronoun in verse sixteen in search of an antecedent. Without that imaginary pronoun which you are trying to read into the text there is no scriptural basis for excluding belief in the promise that baptism into Christ saves from the entire correct body of what is to be believed about Christ.

On the other hand, there is nothing in believing the promise that baptism into Christ saves which excludes anything in verse fourteen from the correct body of that which is to be believed about Christ.
Just how are you applying the rest of His words in context? Is it the same way you apply verse 16?
Yes.
Do note that this is before His ascension where none of them have been saved yet. Are you going to apply signs just as literal as water baptism here that you assume it to be. It wasl at Pentecost when they got saved by being baptized with the Holy Ghost at their salvation. They did not baptize with water again when they were already baptized. Judas Iscariot was not a believer, even though he was water baptized. He had died for why he was not among them.
The participles believed and baptized tell us of a category or define a set of people who will be saved. The Apostles and disciples who were already baptized and believed are not excluded from that category or set of people who will be saved, that is, they are not excluded from that promise.

For that reason and because the passage does not say, "the one who shall believe and who shall be baptized shall be saved," your assertions and conclusions regarding none have been saved, the timing, and signs is not correct.
But how was this baptism achieved? By the answer of a good conscience towards God by believing the resurrection f Jesus Christ. Therefore what is the point of deferring from what puts away the filth of the flesh which is what water does, other than deferring from water baptism.
According to the text rather than someone's imagination what is the nominative which does now save you? Answer: baptism. What is the passive object being saved? Answer: you.

The parenthetical thought you refer to then refers to the acting nominative, baptism, rather than the passive object, you.
Paul did not misunderstood anything when Jesus said the same thing to Nicodemus on how one is born again of the Spirit by believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life. See John 3rd chapter.
The misunderstanding of Paul previously referred to is your misunderstanding of Paul.

Your interpretation of John 3 ignores the context, baptism. It is even more self evident if a person reads John 1-4.
Not man's work; not church's work. The baptism of the Holy Ghost at our salvation is God the Father's work in Jesus's name.
You're almost there, almost at a right understanding. God very often works through people. This is especially true of the proclamation of the Gospel in word and sacrament.
To clarify, it is by believing the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the answer of a good conscience towards God is how one is saved as in born again of the Spirit as in receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation moment; hence the baptism with the Holy Ghost.
That is a non clarification of the text under discussion, but it is a nice story.
To put God's work into man's hands is by limiting God's hand in salvation to water baptism as if He cannot save those who believe without it and that is just not the truth as found in His words..
God put His work in this regard is the hands of men beginning with John the baptist. Baptism is from God and it accomplishes his will just as the gospel preached through men accomplishes His will.

I hope you will read the section above regarding category and set in Mark 16:16. This is because the only one saying God cannot save without baptism is you based upon your misunderstanding of that passage and Scripture in general.
 
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Hark

Well-known member
Your latest question is a tacit admission that you were unable to find a relative pronoun in verse sixteen in search of an antecedent. Without that imaginary pronoun which you are trying to read into the text there is no scriptural basis for excluding belief in the promise that baptism into Christ saves from the entire correct body of what is to be believed about Christ.
First off, if you are going to use the pronoun reasoning in English for denying the truth as plainly written in other scripture , then you may very well be subverted to your church's theology rather than the truth in His words.
On the other hand, there is nothing in believing the promise that baptism into Christ saves which excludes anything in verse fourteen from the correct body of that which is to be believed about Christ.
Let's point out that at the time of Pentecost when His disciples were actually saved when Jesus was no longer present with them, they were not being water baptized into His name at that time.
Hopefully, you can see my reasoning for why I cannot agree with you Biblically.
The participles believed and baptized tell us of a category or define a set of people who will be saved. The Apostles and disciples who were already baptized and believed are not excluded from that category or set of people who will be saved, that is, they are not excluded from that promise.
But yet the participles tells us how they are not saved by not believing. We see that believing in Him is the cause of one's salvation when not believing in Him is the cause for why they are condemned. Therefore ergo, since being born again of the Spirit happens when they believe in Him, as John 3rd chapter is what Jesus's response to Nicodemus to be about, then how can it not be about the automatic baptism with the Holy Ghost for all those that believe in Him in Mark 16:16 when not believing is now they are not saved?
For that reason and because the passage does not say, "the one who shall believe and who shall be baptized shall be saved," your assertions and conclusions regarding none have been saved, the timing, and signs is not correct.
Actually, since scripture testify to how one is born again of the Spirit by believing in Him is how we are saved, then that is why water baptism is not mentioned for those who do not believe and yet they are condemned. It is not believing in Him is how they are condemned, then believing in Him is how we are saved and by believing in Him is the promise of the holy Spirit at our salvation moment hence born again of the Spirit.

We have Gentile believers receiving the Holy Ghost before water baptism and so this flies in the face that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Therefore water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciples as a public witness unto others that they believe..
According to the text rather than someone's imagination what is the nominative which does now save you? Answer: baptism. What is the passive object being saved? Answer: you.

The parenthetical thought you refer to then refers to the acting nominative, baptism, rather than the passive object, you.
Is water baptism the saviour or is Jesus the Saviour? Since Jesus is the Saviour, then when we come to Him & believe in Him, we are saved and thus born again of the Spirit hence that automatic baptism with the Holy Spirit sent by the Father in Jesus's name at our salvation moment
The misunderstanding of Paul previously referred to is your misunderstanding of Paul.
Paul deferred from being about water baptism when he emphasized that the believing of the preaching of the cross is how we are saved That is the power of God in salvation; that is why it is written that the promise of the Spirit is received by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by water baptism in His name.
Your interpretation of John 3 ignores the context, baptism. It is even more self evident if a person reads John 1-4.
Let's cut to the chase; do you believe scripture testifies to the baptism with the Holy Ghost as separate from water baptism or not? Id you agree that there is water baptism and there is the baptism with the Holy Ghost, then you are at a crossroad with Jesus right now for how you are applying Mark 16:16 to mean which is out of alignment with the truths in His words in other scripture in the N.T.
You're almost there, almost at a right understanding. God very often works through people. This is especially true of the proclamation of the Gospel in word and sacrament.
Since Gentile believers were saved before water baptism as Acts 10th chapter testifies, this prove you are adhering to church's theology rather than the whole of scripture in the N.T. regarding how we are actually saved.
That is a non clarification of the text under discussion, but it is a nice story.
Jesus Christ is the Good News to man; not Jesus Christ & water baptism.
God put His work in this regard is the hands of men beginning with John the baptist. Baptism is from God and it accomplishes his will just as the gospel preached through men accomplishes His will.
But John the Baptist only prepared the way for the Lord. The way of the Lord is what? Water baptism? No. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by Me. John the Baptist's water baptism is for the remission of sins whereas believing in Jesus Christ is how we receive the remission of sins and the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment.
I hope you will read the section above regarding category and set in Mark 16:16. This is because the only one saying God cannot save without baptism is you based upon your misunderstanding of that passage and Scripture in general.
You are saying per your church's theology that God cannot save without water baptism.

I say Jesus Christ saved us when we come to & believe in Him for how we are born again of the Spirit; hence the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Look at the conundrum of Acts 8th chapter when Philip was water baptizing the Samaritans in Jesus's name but they had not received the promise of the Holy Ghost. One has to discern with Him why Luke bothered to give the background detail of the Samaritans in the area and Simon the sorcerer's relationship with the people in the area. Simon was infamous fort afflicting the people with unc;lean spirits and so the people's switched from heeding Simon in high regard ( more like infamy ) to coming to see Philip as they were seeing Philip as seemingly doing those miracles. Even Simon followed suit. So they were being water baptized in His name but not coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for that water baptism for why they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit. That is why Peter & John was sent down so that they may received the Holy Ghost at their salvation, but even Simon held unto that mentality thinking he can buy the power of giving the Holy Ghost at other's salvation moment for why he was rebuked and his sight was lifted higher to God above as the One doing all these miracles & baptism with the Holy Ghost for those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. Simon repented by asking Peter & John tp pray to God finally for hsi forgiveness..

Later on Philip in that same chapter 8 of the Book of Acts, in the KJV, made sure that the Ethiopian eunuch was coming to & believing in Jesus Christ before water baptizing him.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

So with the Samaritans, they were water baptized in His name but nit saved yet because they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit because they were following Philip out of fanfare, beholding the miracles and wonders while believing the "things" he was preaching about, but that was different than taking their eyes off of Philip to see the One that was really doing the miracles and now saving them; and it wasn't by water baptism there either.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
And yet for Mark 16:16, it is by not believing is how they are condemned without any special emphasis on being water baptized as to be saved. So you do not know if that baptism referring to God's baptism with the Holy Ghost.

And since Peter went through so much trouble deferring from water as that is what is used to put away the filth of the flesh and emphasizing by believing in Jesus Christ which is the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ is how one is baptized by God.

What you are ignoring by all those scripture pointing that by believing in Him is how we are saved, not by making sure there is water around for water baptism, as if believing the preaching of the cross is not the power of God to save anyone that believes. Paul practically deferred from it which should not be ignored since it reproves your specific ideology.

You are still reading that as water baptism when by faith in Jesus Christ is how we are all baptized in Christ having put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciple. Scripture denies that salvation is achieved by water baptism but by believing in Jesus Christ. That is the power of God in salvation otherwise, salvation would be achieved by preaching water baptism in Jesus's name without ever believing in Jesus Christ and so that would only conform to the world to an outward appearance as the Pharisees & the religious Jews were doing at John the Baptist's water baptism for what John the Baptist was chewing them out for.
You should reconsider your use of the verses in Mark, Chapter 16. All evidence reports that it is not part of the revealed word unless you want to drink poison or handle poisonous vipers.

 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Well, have you considered the difference between a vessel unto honor & the vessel unto dishonor? Read verse 21 where if the believer departed from iniquity, he becomes that vessel unto honor as being ready to be received by the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the vessels unto dishonor for why they are called vessels unto dishonor is for being workers of iniquity, thus not abiding in Him nor ready to go thus "disqualified" and reprobates, for why they are left behind, denied by Him because any iniquity on that foundation that denies Him thus defiling the temple of God will be left behind, unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes. Salvation is not lost, but being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection is that loss in becoming a castaway and not just losing the rewards of crowns.

That is the eternal glory in verse 10 of being received as that vessel unto honor in His House that comes with our salvation. It is a damnation to saved believers left behind for they will be vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come. That is why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth for then they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House once the doors to the Marriage Supper is closed, but they are still in His House as vessels unto dishonor as they will testify to the glory of God in salvation for all those that believe, even in His name as they shall serve the King of kings in raising up the generations following in the 1000 year reign of Christ's on earth.

If you still disagree, then explain verses 19-21 for how a vessel unto dishonor can still be in His House, even former believers if you take in verse 18 also as well as that faithful saying in verses 11-13.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred,
saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So even former believers are still to be called to depart from iniquity before He comes because He still abides as 2 Timothy 2:13 testify.

Wrong again. You don't even try to exegete scripture correctly. You apply your "what does scripture mean to me" false interpretation methods.
 

Hark

Well-known member
You should reconsider your use of the verses in Mark, Chapter 16. All evidence reports that it is not part of the revealed word unless you want to drink poison or handle poisonous vipers.
That quote including that passage in context is towards another poster that believes water baptism is necessary for salvation.

His literal inferring that the baptism spoken of in Mark 16:16 is about water baptism rather than the automatic baptism with the Holy Spirt for those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ is why I included the other verses in context about the signs that are supposed to follow them that believe.

So far, he is not endorsing the following passages in context of Mark 16:16 as to be taken literally per his church's tradition, and yet he still wishes to literally apply Mark 16:16 as if only referring to water baptism as something a believer has to do to prove he is a believer as those who you had pointed out in that video as being in error that would literally take the following verses as something a believer is to do as well to prove they are believers.

So I am not sure why you are replying to me when it is the other poster you should be replying to in respect to the passage in context in regards to that video for why he should not apply Mark 16:15 so literally as only inferring water baptism that a believer has to do to prove he is saved..
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
First off, if you are going to use the pronoun reasoning in English for denying the truth as plainly written in other scripture , then you may very well be subverted to your church's theology rather than the truth in His words.
Why mention only English? If a person knows Greek then that person should already know that there is no relative pronoun in search of antecedent in that passage.

The cut and paste method of scriptural interpretation you display above only leads to error which spawns even more error. If you don't believe that you are the editor for an incompetent God then why are you trying to mentally edit His word? The one true God can and did inspire men to write what He means to convey.
Let's point out that at the time of Pentecost when His disciples were actually saved when Jesus was no longer present with them, they were not being water baptized into His name at that time.
That is more imaginative story telling. The right interpretation of Scripture is reached from the immediate context rather than an imaginative explanation of a passage or section of Scripture which rests on whatever a reader may choose to read into or out of a passage or section of Scripture.
Hopefully, you can see my reasoning for why I cannot agree with you Biblically.
Your reasoning is a significant part of the problem and it has led you to a misunderstanding of Scripture since what you assert is contrary to what it actually says according to the immediate context.
But yet the participles tells us how they are not saved by not believing.
Your assertion again fails to acknowledge or address what men believed in the set of the passage that shall be saved, and what men didn't believe according to the passage that are not in the aforementioned set. What you are trying to read into the passage to the exclusion of what is written in the passage is a gross error.
We see that believing in Him is the cause of one's salvation when not believing in Him is the cause for why they are condemned. Therefore ergo, since being born again of the Spirit happens when they believe in Him, as John 3rd chapter is what Jesus's response to Nicodemus to be about, then how can it not be about the automatic baptism with the Holy Ghost for all those that believe in Him in Mark 16:16 when not believing is now they are not saved?

Actually, since scripture testify to how one is born again of the Spirit by believing in Him is how we are saved, then that is why water baptism is not mentioned for those who do not believe and yet they are condemned. It is not believing in Him is how they are condemned, then believing in Him is how we are saved and by believing in Him is the promise of the holy Spirit at our salvation moment hence born again of the Spirit.

We have Gentile believers receiving the Holy Ghost before water baptism and so this flies in the face that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Therefore water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciples as a public witness unto others that they believe..

Is water baptism the saviour or is Jesus the Saviour? Since Jesus is the Saviour, then when we come to Him & believe in Him, we are saved and thus born again of the Spirit hence that automatic baptism with the Holy Spirit sent by the Father in Jesus's name at our salvation moment

Paul deferred from being about water baptism when he emphasized that the believing of the preaching of the cross is how we are saved That is the power of God in salvation; that is why it is written that the promise of the Spirit is received by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by water baptism in His name.

Let's cut to the chase; do you believe scripture testifies to the baptism with the Holy Ghost as separate from water baptism or not? Id you agree that there is water baptism and there is the baptism with the Holy Ghost, then you are at a crossroad with Jesus right now for how you are applying Mark 16:16 to mean which is out of alignment with the truths in His words in other scripture in the N.T.

Since Gentile believers were saved before water baptism as Acts 10th chapter testifies, this prove you are adhering to church's theology rather than the whole of scripture in the N.T. regarding how we are actually saved.

Jesus Christ is the Good News to man; not Jesus Christ & water baptism.

But John the Baptist only prepared the way for the Lord. The way of the Lord is what? Water baptism? No. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by Me. John the Baptist's water baptism is for the remission of sins whereas believing in Jesus Christ is how we receive the remission of sins and the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment.

You are saying per your church's theology that God cannot save without water baptism.

I say Jesus Christ saved us when we come to & believe in Him for how we are born again of the Spirit; hence the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Look at the conundrum of Acts 8th chapter when Philip was water baptizing the Samaritans in Jesus's name but they had not received the promise of the Holy Ghost. One has to discern with Him why Luke bothered to give the background detail of the Samaritans in the area and Simon the sorcerer's relationship with the people in the area. Simon was infamous fort afflicting the people with unc;lean spirits and so the people's switched from heeding Simon in high regard ( more like infamy ) to coming to see Philip as they were seeing Philip as seemingly doing those miracles. Even Simon followed suit. So they were being water baptized in His name but not coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for that water baptism for why they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit. That is why Peter & John was sent down so that they may received the Holy Ghost at their salvation, but even Simon held unto that mentality thinking he can buy the power of giving the Holy Ghost at other's salvation moment for why he was rebuked and his sight was lifted higher to God above as the One doing all these miracles & baptism with the Holy Ghost for those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. Simon repented by asking Peter & John tp pray to God finally for hsi forgiveness..

Later on Philip in that same chapter 8 of the Book of Acts, in the KJV, made sure that the Ethiopian eunuch was coming to & believing in Jesus Christ before water baptizing him.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

So with the Samaritans, they were water baptized in His name but nit saved yet because they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit because they were following Philip out of fanfare, beholding the miracles and wonders while believing the "things" he was preaching about, but that was different than taking their eyes off of Philip to see the One that was really doing the miracles and now saving them; and it wasn't by water baptism there either.
I've intentionally passed over your further imaginative reasoning why Scripture doesn't and can't mean what it says according to the God given perfect immediate in which it was given.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Why mention only English? If a person knows Greek then that person should already know that there is no relative pronoun in search of antecedent in that passage.
I have no confidence in Greek scholars today since they cannot be in all agreement about John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 as not referring to the Holy Spirit which the KJV and a few modern Bibles maintains the truth in His words so as to not defer from giving the credit & glory of that title " Giver of Life" away from the Son to the Holy Spirit when scripture is to point us to go to the Son for life.
The cut and paste method of scriptural interpretation you display above only leads to error which spawns even more error. If you don't believe that you are the editor for an incompetent God then why are you trying to mentally edit His word? The one true God can and did inspire men to write what He means to convey.
It is too bad that you cannot apply the same judgment when the "church" does the same thing and they get away with it by citing church traditions to be on par with scripture so as to not be sola scriptura for why they do not apply the scripture to reprove the church traditions that goes against the whole truth of the scripture in the N.T to see how they are misapplying His words.
That is more imaginative story telling. The right interpretation of Scripture is reached from the immediate context rather than an imaginative explanation of a passage or section of Scripture which rests on whatever a reader may choose to read into or out of a passage or section of Scripture.
Hardly imaginative when Jesus said it in regards to when He goes to the Father for how & when one is born again of the Spirit.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is Jesus testifying to His future ascension to the Father after His resurrection for when the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation moment will come.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation moment for when Jesus was no longer present with them.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That means the giving of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 10th chapter & the giving of the Holy Spirit in John 20th chapter is NOt when the disciples were saved because Jesus was still present with them.

Jesus said the same thing earlier to Nicodemus as to when and how one is born again of the Spirit when He has ascended to Heaven which is after His crucifixion.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him,................ 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

See how I read that truth in that passage in scripture into Mark 16:16 as referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost? Only God can help you see the truth in His words if you still only read His words with the eye glasses that your church gave you in reading the scripture.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I have no confidence in Greek scholars today since they cannot be in all agreement about John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 as not referring to the Holy Spirit which the KJV and a few modern Bibles maintains the truth in His words so as to not defer from giving the credit & glory of that title " Giver of Life" away from the Son to the Holy Spirit when scripture is to point us to go to the Son for life.
Ok, then just remember that God's yes is yes and His no is no. It remains that there is no relative pronoun in search of an antecedent in Mark 16:16.
It is too bad that you cannot apply the same judgment when the "church" does the same thing and they get away with it by citing church traditions to be on par with scripture so as to not be sola scriptura for why they do not apply the scripture to reprove the church traditions that goes against the whole truth of the scripture in the N.T to see how they are misapplying His words.
This is irrelevant because I am asserting what Scripture actually says in this regard and necessarily means when a person doesn't ignore what is written in it's God given perfect immediate context.
Hardly imaginative when Jesus said it in regards to when He goes to the Father for how & when one is born again of the Spirit.
It becomes an imaginative story when someone uses the words but changes their context and meaning in such a way that it is then used to despise or deny the word of the Lord elsewhere in Scripture.

The Holy Spirit is the best teacher and is not double minded. When Scripture says two things, even different things, about the same subject or topic they are both true. Arbitrarily priveledging one over the other is an error, a gross error.

An obvious example of this is what Scripture says about Jesus. It says two different things, that He is God and that He is man, and both are true. People who err about Jesus privilege one or another over the other. So some say He is only God and others say only man.
John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Good stuff.
This is Jesus testifying to His future ascension to the Father after His resurrection for when the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation moment will come.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation moment for when Jesus was no longer present with them.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That means the giving of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 10th chapter & the giving of the Holy Spirit in John 20th chapter is NOt when the disciples were saved because Jesus was still present with them.

Jesus said the same thing earlier to Nicodemus as to when and how one is born again of the Spirit when He has ascended to Heaven which is after His crucifixion.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him,................ 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

See how I read that truth in that passage in scripture into Mark 16:16 as referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost? Only God can help you see the truth in His words if you still only read His words with the eye glasses that your church gave you in reading the scripture.
Yes, I see how you are reading things into Scripture. Unfortunately, you are reading things into Scripture which are contrary to what Scripture actually says in it's God given perfect immediate context.

Using your last paragraph as an example, you acknowledge that baptism and the Holy Spirit go together. That is good to hear, but it is an error to set it in opposition to Mark 16:16 because in it there is nothing contrary to the one baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit, nothing which separates them.

The Apostles whose minds were opened by the risen Lord to understand the Scriptures and were chosen to be His faithful firsthand witnesses of Him were led to faithfully say and write, that, "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear...Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”" Acts 2:32-33...38-39 - NKJV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NKJV

Obviously, the Apostles understood the John passages you cited and Mark 16:16 in the way that they spoke later in Acts 2 rather than despise and deny the Lord's witness in Mark 16:16 because of His testimony in John or anywhere else in Scripture.
 

Hark

Well-known member
The Apostles whose minds were opened by the risen Lord to understand the Scriptures and were chosen to be His faithful firsthand witnesses of Him were led to faithfully say and write, that, "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear...Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”" Acts 2:32-33...38-39 - NKJV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NKJV

Obviously, the Apostles understood the John passages you cited and Mark 16:16 in the way that they spoke later in Acts 2 rather than despise and deny the Lord's witness in Mark 16:16 because of His testimony in John or anywhere else in Scripture.
The problem here is you & the church's misunderstanding what the Apostles had said.

"This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear...

That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is poured out and being referred to below for believing in Jesus Christ for how we had received the remission of sins.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”" Acts 2:32-33...38-39

John's water baptism of repentance was for the remission of sins, but believing in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins was how one receives the promise of the Holy Ghost; the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

The fact that the Gentiles had received the promise of the holy Spirit when believing the word preached to them BEFORE water baptism proves how they had received the remission of sins by which they had received the baptism with the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment without needing water baptism for that effect.

Therefore it is to be understood since there is only one gospel for the Jews & the Gentiles that believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins & the promise of the Holy Ghost; the baptism with the Holy Ghost a our salvation moment and the commandment or ordinance to be water baptized in His name is for new believers in public, confessing Him before men in following Him as His disciples.

You are free to tell someone dying the Good News even though there is no body of water around to baptized him or her by because it is by believing in Him is how anyone receives the remission of sins and the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The problem here is you & the church's misunderstanding what the Apostles had said.
It is clear from your response that no one has yet found the imaginary relative pronoun that some read into Mark 16:16 in order to misinterpret it.

Regardless, the opening claim above is a demonstrably false assertion through the actual text of Scripture, see the evidence below.
"This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear...
Put the passages in chronological order. It is first Mark 16:16 after the resurrection of Christ, then it is Acts 2 at Pentecost,, and then still later 1 Peter 3:21-22.

Without the imaginary non existent relative pronoun in search of an antecedent what is to be believed in Mark 16:16 is that tthe set of people promised to be saved are those who were baptized and who believed. (There is no necessary temporal order in the participles translated as believed and baptized, they only tell us characteristics of the set of people who will be saved.)

The next in temporal order is Acts 2. What are people to believe about Christ and baptism according to what you cited above? Jesus was raised, ascended to the right hand of the Father, received the promise of the Holy Spirit, and subsequently poured it out on the baptized. (This last statement is self evident through verses 38 and 39. The promise is the same to all, including those previously baptized like the Apostles and disciples.)

In other words, the people are to believe that it is through His resurrection and ascension that the one baptism from God reached it's goal or end when Jesus subsequently poured it out on the baptized and in baptism.
That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is poured out and being referred to below for believing in Jesus Christ for how we had received the remission of sins.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”" Acts 2:32-33...38-39
Based on Acts 2:38-39, which you cited above what are people to believe about Christ? Since Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God the promise of the Holy Spirit is to everyone through baptism. Repemt and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you, your children (without reference to age or mental acuity) and to as many as the Lord should call.

Therefore, Peter would still later rightly wrote that baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, see 1 Peter 3:21-22.
John's water baptism of repentance was for the remission of sins, but believing in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins was how one receives the promise of the Holy Ghost; the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

The fact that the Gentiles had received the promise of the holy Spirit when believing the word preached to them BEFORE water baptism proves how they had received the remission of sins by which they had received the baptism with the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment without needing water baptism for that effect.

Therefore it is to be understood since there is only one gospel for the Jews & the Gentiles that believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins & the promise of the Holy Ghost; the baptism with the Holy Ghost a our salvation moment and the commandment or ordinance to be water baptized in His name is for new believers in public, confessing Him before men in following Him as His disciples.

You are free to tell someone dying the Good News even though there is no body of water around to baptized him or her by because it is by believing in Him is how anyone receives the remission of sins and the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation.
Of course the faithful witness is free to preach Christ as did Mark in 16:16, and Peter at Pentecost and in his epistle in 3:21-22 where there is no water because he is preaching baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ. He is free to preach Christ the same way as Peter in all circumstances, including Acts 11, otherwise, the gospel would not be objective true good news to and for all men.

The unfaithful witness preaches Christ in his or her own image or imagination and proclaims baptism does not now save you through resurrection of Christ or in some other Christ despising or denying manner.
 
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