Baptism; After Salvation

[Hark]

It is clear from your response that no one has yet found the imaginary relative pronoun that some read into Mark 16:16 in order to misinterpret it.

Translating the message in English, can result in missing the message, especially when you are insisting proper modern day English grammar to the Greek..

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Your latest question is a tacit admission that you were unable to find a relative pronoun in verse sixteen in search of an antecedent. Without that imaginary pronoun which you are trying to read into the text there is no scriptural basis for excluding belief in the promise that baptism into Christ saves from the entire correct body of what is to be believed about Christ.

On the other hand, there is nothing in believing the promise that baptism into Christ saves which excludes anything in verse fourteen from the correct body of that which is to be believed about Christ.

Yes.

The participles believed and baptized tell us of a category or define a set of people who will be saved. The Apostles and disciples who were already baptized and believed are not excluded from that category or set of people who will be saved, that is, they are not excluded from that promise.

For that reason and because the passage does not say, "the one who shall believe and who shall be baptized shall be saved," your assertions and conclusions regarding none have been saved, the timing, and signs is not correct.

According to the text rather than someone's imagination what is the nominative which does now save you? Answer: baptism. What is the passive object being saved? Answer: you.

The parenthetical thought you refer to then refers to the acting nominative, baptism, rather than the passive object, you.

The misunderstanding of Paul previously referred to is your misunderstanding of Paul.

Your interpretation of John 3 ignores the context, baptism. It is even more self evident if a person reads John 1-4.

You're almost there, almost at a right understanding. God very often works through people. This is especially true of the proclamation of the Gospel in word and sacrament.

That is a non clarification of the text under discussion, but it is a nice story.

God put His work in this regard is the hands of men beginning with John the baptist. Baptism is from God and it accomplishes his will just as the gospel preached through men accomplishes His will.

I hope you will read the section above regarding category and set in Mark 16:16. This is because the only one saying God cannot save without baptism is you based upon your misunderstanding of that passage and Scripture in general.

This is a constant error. In the future, when he posts scripture I'll ask him to show the context. If that doesn't work, his refusal will constitute what we already know, it's all about eisegesis.

 

[Thistle]

After we believe and are saved, we are now his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works; obey Christ.

It should be completely uncontroversial that we are saved "through faith" as Ephesians 2:89 stipulate. And by identical reasoning it should be completely uncontroversial that we are saved "in baptism" Colossians 2:12. The same apostle affirmed both truths. But by affirming the one and denying the other you've created a very big problem.

"Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."" - John 6:28-29 ESV​

Jesus said those who would be saved are performing a good work by believing on him for salvation. By cleverly designing the argument that you have laid out above, you've made saving faith both the chicken and the egg. The problem is it can't be both.

 

[JonHawk]

Baptism; After Salvation​

Believers​

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 20:31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

"I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel." Ex 39:7

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:20

Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, His child Forever I am.

 

[JonHawk]

“For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory." Isaiah 66:18

"I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel." Ex 39:7

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:20

Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, His child Forever I am.

 

[Saxon]

"I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel." Ex 39:7

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:20

Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, His child Forever I am.

Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb; not baptism.

 

[JonHawk]

Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb; not baptism.

In whom we have redemption [d]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1

 

[Saxon]

In whom we have redemption [d]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1

We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Through His Blood; not baptism!

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1

We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Through His Blood; not baptism!

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Col 2

 

[Saxon]

JonHawk said:
In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Col 2

Still no communication.

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1

Still no communication.

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. Matthew 13:16

 

[Saxon]

JonHawk said:
In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. Matthew 13:16

Do you have any understanding of how to have a conversation?

 

[JonHawk]

Do you have any understanding of how to have a conversation?

Do you have any understanding of the free gift of salvation?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Saxon]

Do you have any understanding of the free gift of salvation?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Obviously you don't know how to have a conversation.

 

[JonHawk]

Do you have any understanding of the free gift of salvation?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Obviously you don't know how to have a conversation.

And obviously you're ignorant of the free gift of salvation.
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. John 3:36

 

[Saxon]

And obviously you're ignorant of the free gift of salvation.
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. John 3:36

You seem to be a scripture quoting troll that has no intention of engaging in a conversation.

 

[JonHawk]

You seem to be a scripture quoting troll that has no intention of engaging in a conversation.

And you're still oblivious of God's free gift of salvation.
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins
The Son is the image of the invisible God. Col 1:14-15
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4

 

[Rejoran]

And all the verses that are quoted would have to mention baptism. As it currently reads baptism is not eluded to salvation let alone a requirement. I don't see any amendments in the near future.

And all the verses that are quoted would have to mention baptism - Says who?

When were we given the authority to make such a requirement? When do Jesus or the apostles have to meet "our" requirements.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Jesus said this only one time and it was true and came to pass.

There are plenty of scriptures Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:4-7, and more explicitly linking baptism to salvation, forgiveness, etc.

It is not wise to give scripture a quota.

 

[Thistle]

And all the verses that are quoted would have to mention baptism - Says who?

When were we given the authority to make such a requirement? When do Jesus or the apostles have to meet "our" requirements.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Jesus said this only one time and it was true and came to pass.

There are plenty of scriptures Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:4-7, and more explicitly linking baptism to salvation, forgiveness, etc.

It is not wise to give scripture a quota.

These are excellent points but when it comes to the connection of baptism to salvation there is an embarrassment of riches in scripture: Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:3-5; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 5:25-27; Colossians 2:11-13; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21. These are the passages that have something to say about the meaning or purpose of baptism. Each one of these passages testifies clearly the baptism is the moment that we receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. In other words, baptism marks the "moment" of our salvation in the threshold sense of the word.

 

[Fred]

These are excellent points but when it comes to the connection of baptism to salvation there is an embarrassment of riches in scripture: Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:3-5; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 5:25-27; Colossians 2:11-13; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21. These are the passages that have something to say about the meaning or purpose of baptism. Each one of these passages testifies clearly the baptism is the moment that we receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. In other words, baptism marks the "moment" of our salvation in the threshold sense of the word.

Corenlius and the Gentiles with him received the gift of the Holy Spirit before their water baptism.