Baptism and early Jewish believers

[Rejoran]

yes, it came from this ministry https://www.ariel.org/
not sure this Q&A are still up, I had saved it in the past

it might specifically be a Texan Jewish Christian view
shalom y'all http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ozlsCwnTla4/SXCbtxEBLZI/AAAAAAAAAb0/i6fTmSaCOFc/s320/fruchtenbaum.JPG

Thank you for clarifying. I'm going to assume you got it from here or a similar course, or maybe directly from the man who taught this course

Loading…

ariel.catalog.instructure.com

I would be open to hearing what he had to say about this matter but I'm not willing to pay $49. So I'll have to make do without.

 

[Martin23233]

the Messiah's people/Nation rejected Him, as was prophesied
not all individuals of that rejected Him
not all Gentiles in this age of Grace are accepting Him now, are they?
and yes, whoever rejects the Son is rejecting the Father who sent Him


couldn't Jewish Christians have insights/view on Scriptural nuances or events
that Gentiles might miss or possibly misunderstand?

Yes...that all seems/appears to be reasonable and logical. Just as it is reasonable that many Jews were converted prior to the 3000 as well since Christ's first ministry was to the Jews.
I would fully agree that most of the Jewish faith would of had (and still do) hold insights to events and some passages that many gentiles might not grasp...especially those who only have a cursory grasp of the OT.

Side question - there are some religions that believe deeply in baptism for salvation...and in some situations (certain pending death...like a horrible accident) a baptism is given to someone of willing nature. is anyone familiar with or heard of situations such as this? What would be the guidelines for such a baptism to 'take hold' per se....
For the record I'm not of the thought that baptism is required.... it certainly is a key aspect of one's Christian journey and I have never seen any harm in anyone of any age getting baptized and re-affirming. I'm curious about these death-bed baptisms if anyone has some data.

 

[American Gothic]

I would be open to hearing what he had to say about this matter

I provided the Q&A
other related points/clarification might be found here

The Three Messianic Miracles by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

What three miracles that were not biblical benchmarks, but rabbinic, did Yeshua perform that should have convinced the religious leaders that He was Messiah? What were the profound ramifications of their rejection of His obvious messiahship on Yeshua's ministry and on Israel's immediate and...

www.messianicassociation.org

 

[American Gothic]

Yes...that all seems/appears to be reasonable and logical. Just as it is reasonable that many Jews were converted prior to the 3000 as well since Christ's first ministry was to the Jews.

I would view Jesus' ministry as to Jews who were under the Mosaic covenant/Law - and He taught that to the Full of what was required
I would view all Apostolic ministry following the resurrection to be different Covenant teaching
some Christians view everything Jesus said during His ministry as aimed at them specifically, but I don't

I would fully agree that most of the Jewish faith would of had (and still do) hold insights to events and some passages that many gentiles might not grasp...especially those who only have a cursory grasp of the OT.

I don't think one needs to understand all the OT to understand and believe the Gospel
but Believers should have a general desire to learn the whole Bible
it's a complex book

Side question - there are some religions that believe deeply in baptism (or other things) for salvation...

yes, and some Christians view certain things as more than symbolic/Memorial in nature
but in doing so might be missing or going against the Jewish context

 

[Martin23233]

I would view Jesus' ministry as to Jews who were under the Mosaic covenant/Law - and He taught that to the Full of what was required
I would view all Apostolic ministry following the resurrection to be different Covenant teaching
some Christians view everything Jesus said during His ministry as aimed at them specifically, but I don't

I too personally don't see the evidence that 'everything Jesus said during his....' was aimed at only gentiles....as he did save many Jews before he died. I get your point about you seeing a difference in Covenant teaching (if I am reading you correctly) but Christ Himself did not always follow the Mosaic Law...he openly broke that Law in many ways ...and thus it's covenant.....as well as taught that he was the way. I don't believe that Luke or John were any more saved after Christ died than before.

I don't think one needs to understand all the OT to understand and believe the Gospel
but Believers should have a general desire to learn the whole Bible
it's a complex book

Agreed - but my comment was specifically in reference to those Jews who practice and hold the feast days and why...much of which a Christian would not fully grasp just by reading the OT. (and watching the Ten Commandments every Easter don't count).

yes, and some Christians view certain things as more than symbolic/Memorial in nature
but in doing so might be missing or going against the Jewish context

 

[American Gothic]

I too personally don't see the evidence that 'everything Jesus said during his....' was aimed at only gentiles....

I think you meant Jews there...'s ok

I get your point about you seeing a difference in Covenant teaching (if I am reading you correctly) but Christ Himself did not always follow the Mosaic Law...

Jesus didn't always follow Oral/Rabbinic law - which was added to the Mosaic law
(Pharisees/Rabbinic Judaism consider those directives from Moses/God)

I think He did all that was required of Him
there are only about 70 Mosaic commands that applied to regular adult male individuals

He was the Lawgiver who talked to Moses on the mountain anyway
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." Deut. 12

 

[Martin23233]

I think you meant Jews there...'s ok

No, I meant what I stated.... it was in reference to your comment " Jesus said during His ministry as aimed at them specifically, but I don't", unless you are actually trying to say that Jesus's ministry was really aimed at the gentiles...... 's ok though.

Jesus didn't always follow Oral/Rabbinic law - which was added to the Mosaic law
(Pharisees/Rabbinic Judaism consider those directives from Moses/God)

Yeah... so it looks like you agree then.

I think He did all that was required of Him
there are only about 70 Mosaic commands that applied to regular adult male individuals

That's all???? dang... my teenage years seemed to be more constrained- it's no wonder I failed fast in my parents Laws.....

He was the Lawgiver who talked to Moses on the mountain anyway
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." Deut. 12

Agreed...that is why I feel Matt Slick is one of those who spreads heresy with is false preaching and misguidance of a few simple concepts...that dude is pretty arrogant. imagine trying to sell the believe that Christs words on the when the second coming is only about a wedding party. most all see through that silliness.... Only God knows the time.... and has nothing to do with the earthly parent. One of many slip ups Matt makes but I do give him credit for being silent about losing one's salvation (something he thinks can't be lost)..but just utter one statement against the Holy Spirit...and you will lose it. ... kicking Matt's concept out the door. But God bless him... he is certainly trying and is on the side of most Christians and helping many stay strong in Christ..even if his ego gets in his way.

 

[JonHawk]

No, I meant what I stated.... it was in reference to your comment " Jesus said during His ministry as aimed at them specifically, but I don't", unless you are actually trying to say that Jesus's ministry was really aimed at the gentiles...... 's ok though.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

... but I do give him credit for being silent about losing one's salvation (something he thinks can't be lost).. But God bless him... he is certainly trying and is on the side of most Christians and helping many stay strong in Christ..even if his ego gets in his way.

What did John B say? He must increase, but I must decrease.

 

[American Gothic]

's ok though.

Jesus taught to Mosaic covenant Jews, not Christians is my view

Agreed...that is why I feel Matt Slick is one of those who spreads heresy with is false preaching and misguidance of a few simple concepts...that dude is pretty arrogant. imagine trying to sell the believe that Christs words on the when the second coming is only about a wedding party.

I'd guess a Party would follow a marriage Ceremony

most all see through that silliness....

that issue helps illustrate my point on the possibility that Jewish Christians might
have a take on something that Gentile believers might not have
if the Church/Christ marriage idea follows an established Jewish model, as some think possible

 

[JonHawk]

After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. Hosea 6:2

Jesus taught to Mosaic covenant Jews, not Christians is my view

I'd guess a Party would follow a marriage Ceremony

that issue helps illustrate my point on the possibility that Jewish Christians might
have a take on something that Gentile believers might not have
if the Church/Christ marriage idea follows an established Jewish model, as some think possible

And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’
Luke 13:32
But the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. Heb 7:28

But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

For if we deliberately continue in sin [in rebellion] after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Heb 10:11-26

 

[Martin23233]

Jesus taught to Mosaic covenant Jews, not Christians is my view

Agreed..the good book clearly shows our Lord's mission was first to the Jews...but many gentiles were also caught up in his ministry and his blessings..and even salvation of one's soul. I forget the reference but Christ even instructed to avoid certain gentile areas...until later. ( Keep in mind there were no 'Christians' back during Jesus's ministry.

I'd guess a Party would follow a marriage Ceremony

Exactly.... and there would be no 'Party' at the second coming.... quite the opposite. - Point being, only the Father knows....is not a reference that Matt should be falsely spreading as being the father of the groom and not what scripture intended it to be.... that only the Father knows when the second coming will be.

that issue helps illustrate my point on the possibility that Jewish Christians might
have a take on something that Gentile believers might not have
if the Church/Christ marriage idea follows an established Jewish model, as some think possible

Exactly.... as Jesus was raised in the Jewish faith...and certainly followed much of it as best we can tell....but He also, was preparing the way...and expressing the New Covenant. I think the early Christian church picked up many nuances from many cultures.... and they exist in Christian practices today....while not always well understood. It's not a big deal that we celebrate the Birth of our Lord when we celebrate Christmas...even though that was not when Christ was born (and sadly why Jehovah witnesses teach against it)...but what better time to celebrate?...the triumph of Light of darkness......seems like a great time to recognize Christ.... while not a strict necessity....it's still a good thing.

 

[JonHawk]

"We worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."

Agreed..the good book clearly shows our Lord's mission was first to the Jews...

Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
The patriarchs, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, who reigns supreme over all, God blessed forever. Amen. Rom 9:4-5

but many gentiles were also caught up in his ministry and his blessings..and even salvation of one's soul.

And you are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 God raised up His Servant for you first, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” Acts 3

 

[American Gothic]

Q: What was the "baptism of repentance" John proclaimed to the Jews (what were they repenting of)?

A: The word “repentance” means “to change one’s mind.” In essence, John the Baptist was calling upon the Jewish people to repent or change their minds about which Judaism they were going to follow: pharisaic Judaism or biblical Judaism.

Those who were willing to make the commitment and follow biblical Judaism would undergo water baptism to show their new identification with John’s kingdom message. This message was based upon biblical Judaism, the only Judaism that would qualify the people for Messiah’s kingdom.

 

[JonHawk]

"We worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."

Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
The patriarchs, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, who reigns supreme over all, God blessed forever. Amen. Rom 9:4-5

And you are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 God raised up His Servant for you first, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” Acts 3

Q: What was the "baptism of repentance" John proclaimed to the Jews

Believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Acts 19:4

(what were they repenting of)?

“Seek Me and live" Amos 5:4

A: The word “repentance” means “to change one’s mind.” In essence, John the Baptist was calling upon the Jewish people to repent or change their minds about which Judaism they were going to follow: pharisaic Judaism or biblical Judaism.

Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people, Isa 55

Those who were willing to make the commitment and follow biblical Judaism would undergo water baptism to show their new identification with John’s kingdom message. This message was based upon biblical Judaism, the only Judaism that would qualify the people for Messiah’s kingdom.

We are His witnesses and we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’
And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’ Acts 13:31-34

 

[American Gothic]

Believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Acts 19:4

"Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent.
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him
nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him." Acts 13

"My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray..." Jeremiah 50

which Judaism they were going to follow: pharisaic Judaism or biblical Judaism

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
Believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Acts 19:4

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, You who lead Joseph like a flock; You who dwell between the cherubim, shine forth!
Cause Your face to shine, And we shall be saved! Ps 80

"Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent.

For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him." Acts 13 "My people have been lost sheep.

May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, bless you;

Their shepherds have led them astray..." Jeremiah 50

The Lord is my shepherd; Psalm 23:1
Uphold me by Your generous Spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners shall be converted to You; Ps 51:12-13

American Gothic said:
which Judaism they were going to follow: pharisaic Judaism or biblical Judaism

I will establish one Shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—Ezekiel 34:23

Save Your people, And bless Your inheritance; Shepherd them also, And bear them up forever. Psalm 28:9

 

[Rejoran]

Q: What was the "baptism of repentance" John proclaimed to the Jews (what were they repenting of)?

A: The word “repentance” means “to change one’s mind.” In essence, John the Baptist was calling upon the Jewish people to repent or change their minds about which Judaism they were going to follow: pharisaic Judaism or biblical Judaism.

Those who were willing to make the commitment and follow biblical Judaism would undergo water baptism to show their new identification with John’s kingdom message. This message was based upon biblical Judaism, the only Judaism that would qualify the people for Messiah’s kingdom.

Really? I guess then it had nothing to do with what Peter actually said
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

But sure, make up a reason for baptism in Jesus's name, apart from what Peter said, and let's go with that.

 

[American Gothic]

Really? I guess then it had nothing to do with what Peter actually said
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

But sure, make up a reason for baptism in Jesus's name, apart from what Peter said, and let's go with that.

the Holy Spirit is given before/independent of any water baptism, no?

 

[Rejoran]

the Holy Spirit is given before/independent of any water baptism, no?

You're changing the subject. Peter gave a reason for which they were to be baptized, and it wasn't what you said.

 

[JonHawk]

He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 2 Cor 5:15

@American Gothic
You're changing the subject. Peter gave a reason for which they were to be baptized, and it wasn't what you said.

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. Romans 14:8-10

God raised Him up on the third day, and showed Him openly,... To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Acts 10:40-44