Baptism and early Jewish believers

American Gothic

Well-known member
You're changing the subject. Peter gave a reason for which they were to be baptized, and it wasn't what you said.
so You think Peter meant all sins/Sin here (?)

and some Jewish believers in Jesus think it was (at least in part maybe) referring to some specific sins at that time
and it says Who he is addressing
"the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God (ie. Gentile "God fearers")
who had been following the Pharisee teaching rather than The Way

in becoming a Believer in Messiah Jesus, Paul changed Theology from Pharisaism to The Way (the Zadok way/Biblical Judaism)
as this view suggests Peter said Jews should do
Pharisaism still rejects Jesus to this Day
 
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JonHawk

Well-known member
He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 2 Cor 5:15
Rejoran said:

You're changing the subject. Peter gave a reason for which they were to be baptized, and it wasn't what you said.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. Romans 14:8-10

God raised Him up on the third day, and showed Him openly,... To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Acts 10:40-44
 

Rejoran

Active member
so You think Peter meant all sins/Sin here (?)

and some Jewish believers in Jesus think it was (at least in part maybe) referring to some specific sins at that time
and it says Who he is addressing
"the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God (ie. Gentile "God fearers")
who had been following the Pharisee teaching rather than The Way

in becoming a Believer in Messiah Jesus, Paul changed Theology from Pharisaism to The Way (the Zadok way/Biblical Judaism)
as this view suggests Peter said Jews should do
Pharisaism still rejects Jesus to this Day
Mark 16:15-16 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. [16] He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 24:46-48 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, [47] and that repentance for forgiveness of SINS would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. [48] You are witnesses of these things.

Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."


Sins (plural), and to every creature beginning at Jerusalem as was prophesied by Jesus and fulfilled at Pentecost even to the remotest part of the earth.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."


Why would they be expected to proclaim repentance for forgiveness of SINS in His name to all the nations if it was only to some specific sins at that time. No, this was Jesus's master plan for the world.
 
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JonHawk

Well-known member
Mark 16:15-16 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. [16] He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 24:46-48 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, [47] and that repentance for forgiveness of SINS would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. [48] You are witnesses of these things.
Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
Sins (plural), and to every creature beginning at Jerusalem as was prophesied by Jesus and fulfilled at Pentecost even to the remotest part of the earth.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Why would they be expected to proclaim repentance for forgiveness of SINS in His name to all the nations if it was only to some specific sins at that time. No, this was Jesus's master plan for the world.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever. Do not be carried away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be established by grace...Heb 13:8-9

Because Jesus ·lives forever, He has an unchangeable, eternal priesthood. Therefore He is able also to save forever (completely, perfectly, for eternity) those who come to God through Him, since lives to intercede on their behalf [with God]. Heb 7:24-25
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Why would they be expected to proclaim repentance for forgiveness of SINS in His name to all the nations if it was only to some specific sins at that time. No, this was Jesus's master plan for the world.
so you don't buy the notion that the Jewish nation had some sins specific to Them that needed to be addressed at that time
or that that might to a certain degree be what is being reference there
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
so you don't buy the notion that the Jewish nation had sins specific to Them that needed to be addressed at that time
I solemnly testified to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:20-21
That the Messiah must suffer and be the first to rise from death, to announce the light of salvation to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
I solemnly testified to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:20-21
That the Messiah must suffer and be the first to rise from death, to announce the light of salvation to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23
the basics of the Truth have been known since Adam, Eve, and Abel
of all the peoples on Earth, the Jews should have known them, and recognized their promised Messiah for what and Who He was

but ya know...sin happens
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
I solemnly testified to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:20-21
That the Messiah must suffer and be the first to rise from death, to announce the light of salvation to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23
the basics of the Truth have been known since Adam, Eve, and Abel
of all the peoples on Earth, the Jews should have known them, and recognized their promised Messiah for what and Who He was

but ya know...sin happens
And so does redemption. For in the Messiah is full redemption. Ps 130:7

Now this I know: The Lord gives victory to his anointed. He answers him from his heavenly sanctuary with the victorious power of his right hand. Psalm 20:6
 
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Rejoran

Active member
so you don't buy the notion that the Jewish nation had some sins specific to Them that needed to be addressed at that time
or that that might to a certain degree be what is being reference there
Any specific sins
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
were included in the overall worldwide intended message and plan. Peter followed suit with the worldwide intended message and plan Jesus spoke of Matthew 28:18-19, Mark 16:15-16, Luke 24:47, Acts 1:8 when he was addressing these Jews
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

From the get go this was not just for them, this is for everybody who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Any specific sins
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
were included in the overall worldwide intended message and plan. Peter followed suit with the worldwide intended message and plan Jesus spoke of Matthew 28:18-19, Mark 16:15-16, Luke 24:47, Acts 1:8 when he was addressing these Jews
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

From the get go this was not just for them, this is for everybody who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.
I don't think this view implies things are only for them, just that Jews needed to believe
the Messiah to the rejection of any Jewish movements that were theologically suspect and destined
to continue in their rejection of Him

certainly Gentiles can believe the same Message that the Apostles were imploring their fellow Jews to believe
 
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Rejoran

Active member
I don't think this view implies things are only for them,
Ok.
just that Jews needed to believe
the Messiah to the rejection of any Jewish movements that were theologically suspect and destined to continue in their rejection of Him
I think that would be a given and would go without saying, and would be discussed later
2 Corinthians 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
But on that day, I think it was just about the message that they spoke.

certainly Gentiles can believe the same Message that the Apostles were imploring their fellow Jews to believe
👍
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
" I will also make You a light of the Gentiles So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” Isaiah 49:6
I don't think this view implies things are only for them, just that Jews needed to believe the Messiah
to the rejection of any Jewish movements that were theologically suspect and destined to continue in their rejection of Him

certainly Gentiles can believe the same Message that the Apostles were imploring their fellow Jews to believe
Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also; Rom 3:29

That the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:
“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people." Rom 15

So, if God gave the Gentiles the same gift [equally] as He gave us after we accepted and believed and trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ [as Savior], who was I to interfere?” When they heard, they made no further objection. And they glorified God, saying, Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto [new] life [after resurrection]. Acts 11:17-18
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Q: ...why does Peter tell the Jews in Acts 2:38 to “repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?” Those that believe in baptismal regeneration cite this scripture as proof that baptism is what causes your sins to be forgiven. However, it is clear in Acts 10 when Cornelius believes he is instantly baptized by the Holy Spirit and then gets water baptized. Acts 2:41 seems to indicate that only those who believed Peter's message were baptized. But I would appreciate your insight into what you think is happening in Acts 2:38.

A: Concerning your question about Acts 2:38, it should always be kept in mind that this statement is being made to the same Jewish generation guilty of the unpardonable sin and facing the judgment of A.D. 70. While the coming judgment of A.D. 70 was by now unavoidable, individuals could escape the judgment if they would do two things.

First, they would have to repent, change their mind about Jesus, and that act of repentance would save them spiritually, but by itself would not save them physically.

The second thing they would have to do is undergo water baptism that will separate them from the Jewish generation guilty of the unpardonable sin and therefore, they would escape the judgment of A.D. 70.

This becomes especially evident if you also look in verse 40 where he admonishes them to “save yourselves from this crooked generation”. It is obvious they could not have saved themselves spiritually, because spiritual salvation is a result based upon their faith in Messiah. But they could save themselves in another way. He specifies they could save themselves “from this crooked generation” and that is what water baptism will do for them: It will separate them from the generation guilty of the unpardonable sin.

So taken in context, he is dealing here with physical salvation and not spiritual salvation.

(the Unpardonable Sin here being rejection of Jesus' Messianic claim thru charge of demon possession first made by Leadership and then followed
by the Nation as an entity, not by every individual Jew - it's a specific generational and national sin)

thoughts?
Peter preached that way because of the prior commands and promises of Christ in Luke 24 and Mark 16, respectively.

The command to preach repentance and the forgiveness of sins in His name in Luke 24:44ff is preached as repent and be baptized in His for the forgiveness of sins...

The promise to the baptized disciples of Christ who received that great commission also received the associated promise, the one who believed and was baptized shall be saved, Mark 16:16. And so those baptized disciples went out baptizing and teaching all peoples in His name, Matthew 28:19ff.

The example of Cornelius and gang occurred and is recorded as a fulfillment of the vision given to Peter rather than as a device for some to try and overturn the clear word of God.

The immediate context rules.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Peter preached that way because of the prior commands and promises of Christ in Luke 24 and Mark 16, respectively.
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” Luke 24:25-27

They proclaimed how the Messiah would suffer and be the first to be raised from death, so He could bring the light of salvation to his own people and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:23

Since He raised Him from the dead, He will never go back to the grave and become dust. So God said: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings that I promised to David.’ Acts 13:34 'I will make an everlasting covenant with you,...' Isaiah 55:3 'I will not violate my covenant or alter the promise I have spoken.' Ps 89:35
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” Luke 24:25-27

They proclaimed how the Messiah would suffer and be the first to be raised from death, so He could bring the light of salvation to his own people and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:23

Since He raised Him from the dead, He will never go back to the grave and become dust. So God said: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings that I promised to David.’ Acts 13:34 'I will make an everlasting covenant with you,...' Isaiah 55:3 'I will not violate my covenant or alter the promise I have spoken.' Ps 89:35
That is again avoiding the immediate context. What you cite from Luke is prior to the Lord opening the minds of the disciples to understand the Scriptures. “44. Then he said to them, "These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you. I told you that everything written about me in Moses' Teachings, the Prophets, and the Psalms had to come true." 45. Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.” (Luk 24:44-45, GodsWord)

The right doctrine in this regard is to be found according to the immediate context in the record of the disciples who walked and talked with the incarnate, crucified, and risen Lord and whose minds were opened to understand the Scriptures.

A wrong understanding in this regard is to be found in the out of context thoughts of those who mentally cut and paste the Scriptures in such a way as to modify or deny the immediate context in order to imply or tell a story of his or her imagination.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” Luke 24:25-27

They proclaimed how the Messiah would suffer and be the first to be raised from death, so He could bring the light of salvation to his own people and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:23

Since He raised Him from the dead, He will never go back to the grave and become dust. So God said: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings that I promised to David.’ Acts 13:34 'I will make an everlasting covenant with you,...' Isaiah 55:3 'I will not violate my covenant or alter the promise I have spoken.' Ps 89:35
That is again avoiding the immediate context. What you cite from Luke is prior to the Lord opening the minds of the disciples to understand the Scriptures. “44. Then he said to them, "These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you. I told you that everything written about me in Moses' Teachings, the Prophets, and the Psalms had to come true." 45. Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.” (Luk 24:44-45, GodsWord)

The right doctrine in this regard is to be found according to the immediate context in the record of the disciples who walked and talked with the incarnate, crucified, and risen Lord and whose minds were opened to understand the Scriptures.

A wrong understanding in this regard is to be found in the out of context thoughts of those who mentally cut and paste the Scriptures in such a way as to modify or deny the immediate context in order to imply or tell a story of his or her imagination.
If I'm avoiding the truth of the gospel, I'll see you in hell Pachelbel.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day...1 Cor 15

Who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Gal 1
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” Luke 24:25-27
They proclaimed how the Messiah would suffer and be the first to be raised from death, so He could bring the light of salvation to his own people and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:23
Since He raised Him from the dead, He will never go back to the grave and become dust. So God said: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings that I promised to David.’ Acts 13:34 'I will make an everlasting covenant with you,...' Isaiah 55:3 'I will not violate my covenant or alter the promise I have spoken.' Ps 89:35
BJ Bear said:
That is again avoiding the immediate context.

The right doctrine in this regard is to be found according to the immediate context in the record of the disciples who walked and talked with the incarnate, crucified, and risen Lord and whose minds were opened to understand the Scriptures.

A wrong understanding in this regard is to be found in the out of context thoughts of those who mentally cut and paste the Scriptures in such a way as to modify or deny the immediate context in order to imply or tell a story of his or her imagination.
If I'm avoiding the truth of the gospel, I'll see you in hell Pachelbel.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day...1 Cor 15

Who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Gal 1
BJ Bear said:
Then you should believe, teach, and confess like the Apostles that baptism does now save you through the ressurection of Christ, see 1 Peter 3:21-22.
Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ 2 Tim1:9
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
If I'm avoiding the truth of the gospel, I'll see you in hell Pachelbel.
Reality trumps imagination in this life and the next. The difference is that in the next life it won't be denied regardless of where a person finds himself.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day...1 Cor 15

Who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Gal 1
Great passages which say nothing that modifies or denies the plain categorical statements made by the Lord and the Apostles about baptism. The difference is that those whose minds have been opened by the Spirit to understand the Scriptures necessarily understand them in the same manner as the disciples whose minds were opened by the risen Lord to understand Scripture.

The next time you read or hear some babbler trying to explain how Scripture doesn't say what it means, or doesn't mean what it says, about Christ and baptism ask yourself where does the babbler get his doctrine? It obviously isn't Scripture according to the immediate context in which it was given.

Those whose minds were opened by the Holy Spirit to understand the Scriptures and those minds were opened by the Lord to understand the Scriptures and consequently penned the NT agree on it's intended meaning. They did not imagine or come up with those convoluted false doctrines and attempts "explanations" of Scripture which turn people away from Christ and towards the babbler.
 
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