Baptism does not atone for sin.

JonHawk

Active member
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
Believing Christians know that God exalted Him to His own right hand as Prince and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 When He [Himself and no other] had [by offering Himself on the cross as a sacrifice for sin] accomplished purification from sins and established our freedom from sin; He sat down [revealing His completed work] at the right hand of the Majesty on high [revealing His Divine authority; Heb 1

For what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 2 Cor 6
This at least touches on the topic but says nothing contrary to or contradictory to 1 Peter 3. Instead, if one looks at the proclamation of the Apostles in Acts of Christ, baptism, the forgiveness of sins, and what actually occurred then the Bible believer will realize that Acts confirms 1 Peter 3.
“45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luk 24:45-47, KJV)
“38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Act 2:38-39, KJV)
A promise depends on the one who gives it, in this case God.
BJ Bear said:
....they bring condemnation upon themselves if they are doing to fulfill a law or merit something before God rather than do it out of the freedom that is in Christ Jesus.

“13. And you, being dead in the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the offenses,14. blotting out the handwriting in the ordinances against us, which was contrary to us, even He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross; 15. having stripped the rulers and the authorities, He made a show of them in public, triumphing over them in it. 16. Then do not let anyone judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or the new moon, or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body is of Christ.” (Col 2:13-17, LITV)
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the the essential manifestation of the unseen God, the firstborn the preeminent one, the sovereign life originator of all creation. Col 1:14-16
He commanded us to preach to the people [both Jew and Gentile], and to solemnly testify that He is the One who has been appointed and ordained by God as Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:42

Whoever rejects Me and and My words will be judged at the last day by the word I have spoken.
And I know that His commandment is eternal life; John 12:48-50
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Why does your post contain passages of self condemnation? The interpretation you've been asserting is contrary to and denies what Jesus said. A reason why is below. There will be more scriptural reasons to follow.
Whoever rejects Me and and My words will be judged at the last day by the word I have spoken.
And I know that His commandment is eternal life; John 12:48-50
Check out Mark 16:16.

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mar 16:16, KJV)

That is a clear statement to those who were going to go out into the world to spread the Gospel that baptism into Christ saves. And so the guys believed and did, beginning at Pentecost.

Obviously, there is no conflict whatsover between faith in Christ and baptism into Christ which are means by which the Lord saves men because that is what the Lord has given all people to believe.

People who don't understand what the Lord said in that passage, or don't want to believe what the Lord said, twist it by imagining a relative pronoun into the passage. After having done they then interpret it along this line, "Whoever believed [this other thing] and is baptized shall be saved..."

They then try and justify their imaginative and contrary to the word of God interpretation by pointing to the fruit of their imagination. Their reasoning continues along this line, "See, it says whoever believes [this other thing] so baptism into Christ can't save or doesn't save," or something like that.

I'll respond to more of your post later.
 

JonHawk

Active member
BJ Bear said:
39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Act 2:38-39, KJV)
A promise depends on the one who gives it, in this case God. A promise can only be rightly be received by faith,

“13. And you, being dead in the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the offenses,...do not let anyone judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or the new moon, or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body is of Christ.” (Col 2:13-17, LITV)
JonHawk:
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the the essential manifestation of the unseen God, the firstborn the preeminent one, the sovereign life originator of all creation. Col 1:14-16
He commanded us to preach to the people [both Jew and Gentile], and to solemnly testify that He is the One who has been appointed and ordained by God as Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:42

Whoever rejects Me and and My words will be judged at the last day by the word I have spoken.
And I know that His commandment is eternal life; John 12:48-50
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36
Why does your post contain passages of self condemnation? The interpretation you've been asserting is contrary to and denies what Jesus said. A reason why is below. There will be more scriptural reasons to follow.
Check out Mark 16:16.
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body1 Corinthians 12:13

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, Rom 8
but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mar 16:16, KJV)
But to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. Titus 1:15

To the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd. Psalm 18:25-26
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Here is some more context regarding the next passage of self condemnation which you posted for those who hold to the error you've been asserting.
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36
“31. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.34. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (Joh 3:31-36, KJV)

John 3:36 is a passage of self condemnation for those who assert your view while claiming to understand the matter because they deny what the one from above, the incarnate Lord, has plainly said.

You've already agreed, at least to a certain extent, that the historical events in the Gospels and Scripture in general actually occurred in the way that Scripture says. Keep that in mind as you read the Gospel John being careful to keep things in chronological order.

For example, John is again recorded denying that he is the Christ. He is then asked why does he baptize if he is not the Christ, etc. “25. And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26. John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;” (Joh 1:25-26, KJV)

John excluded himself from being the Christ but he didn't exclude the baptism of the Holy Spirit because of the baptism from God which he was sent to administer. The passage you cited earlier, Mark 1:8, states the matter more explicitly.

Fast forwarding in time to John 3, in the same way the Lord doesn't exclude John's baptism from being from God, being born from above, being born of God, or being born again. “5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (Joh 3:5-6, KJV)

Fast forward again to the resurrection and then Pentecost, after the Lord opened the minds of the disciples to understand Scripture what occurred and what did they proclaim? Jesus, having received the promise of the Spirit from the Father, pours it out on all flesh in baptism, see Acts 2 for greater context, for example, “38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Act 2:38-39, KJV)

Fast forward again to the time of the Epistles and you will learn of the one baptism, Ephesians 4:4, the one baptism which does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, 1 Peter 3:21-22, and other similar statements throughout the NT regarding the one baptism from God.
 

JonHawk

Active member
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the the essential manifestation of the unseen God, the firstborn the preeminent one, the sovereign life originator of all creation. Col 1:14-16

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, Rom 8
But to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. Titus 1:15
John 3:36 is a passage of self condemnation for those who assert your view while claiming to understand the matter because they deny what the one from above, the incarnate Lord, has plainly said.
But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth;
You've already agreed, at least to a certain extent, that the historical events in the Gospels and Scripture in general actually occurred in the way that Scripture says.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (Joh 3:5-6, KJV)
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. John 6:63
Keep that in mind as you read the Gospel John being careful to keep things in chronological order.
Do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath; Rom 2

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. rom 6:23
 
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JonHawk

Active member
BJ Bear said:
A promise depends on the one who gives it, in this case God. A promise can only be rightly be received by faith,

“13. And you, being dead in the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the offenses,...do not let anyone judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or the new moon, or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body is of Christ.” (Col 2:13-17, LITV)
JonHawk said:
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the the essential manifestation of the unseen God, the firstborn the preeminent one, the sovereign life originator of all creation. Col 1:14-16

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, Rom 8
But to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. Titus 1:15
BJ Bear said:
John 3:36 is a passage of self condemnation for those who assert your view while claiming to understand the matter because they deny what the one from above, the incarnate Lord, has plainly said.
But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth;
BJ Bear said:
You've already agreed, at least to a certain extent, that the historical events in the Gospels and Scripture in general actually occurred in the way that Scripture says.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (Joh 3:5-6, KJV)
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. John 6:63
BJ Bear said:
Keep that in mind as you read the Gospel John being careful to keep things in chronological order.
Do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath; Rom 2

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. *Rom 6:23
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The Holy Spirit is the best teacher so the right way to understand Scripture is according to the God given perfect immediate context in which it was given. A person will not reach a right understanding of Scripture by taking passages out of context and then glueing them back together in whatever order and context suits the fancy of sinful men.
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the the essential manifestation of the unseen God, the firstborn the preeminent one, the sovereign life originator of all creation. Col 1:14-16
Thanks for posting the paraphrase above of Colossians 1:14-16 because it made me look for where you found it. Once I found it and looked up 1 Peter 3 in the AMP a source of the error you have been asserting became apparent. Btw, you could have saved us both time and cyber ink by just posting that there are notes in the Bible you read which teach the interpretation you assert.

Reading a second Bible with a different translation in parallel with a preferred Bible translation can be helpful. If a person doesn't have a second Bible then he can still read other translations on-line at sites like www.biblegateway.com. There are also free Bible study programs with various translations that a person can download and read.

The notes and amplifications for 1 Peter 3:21 don't accurately reflect the text. For example, in 1 Peter 3:21 the substantive which does now save you is baptism. “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ..."
(1Pe 3:21, KJV) The person being baptized is only the passive object being baptized.

"...(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)..."
(1Pe 3:21, KJV) Is a description of what the acting substantive is and does, that is, it is a description of what baptism is and does. It is not a description of what the passive object is and does. The passive object is passive.

"...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” (1Pe 3:21, KJV) Baptism is and does what it does by the means of the resurrection of Christ. “Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.” (1Pe 3:22, KJV)

In opposition to this clear statement in the word of God regarding baptism the notes in the AMP would have people believe,

"Footnotes​

  1. 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah."

Obviously, nowhere in the text of 1 Peter 3:21-22, or anywhere else in Scripture, does it state or imply what the AMP would like people to believe.
 

JonHawk

Active member
The Holy Spirit is the best teacher so the right way to understand Scripture is according to the God given perfect immediate context in which it was given. A person will not reach a right understanding of Scripture by taking passages out of context and then glueing them back together in whatever order and context suits the fancy of sinful men.
Correct, and of course "sinful men" are made right/reconciled with God's Spirit through faith, the redemption in Christ Jesus.
Thanks for posting the paraphrase above of Colossians 1:14-16 because it made me look for where you found it.

Once I found it and looked up 1 Peter 3 in the AMP a source of the error you have been asserting became apparent.
You may be looking in all the wrong places.
For Christ has redeemed us... that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3
Btw, you could have saved us both time and cyber ink by just posting that there are notes in the Bible you read which teach the interpretation you assert.
Btw, no particular preference, all versions say that we are justified by His blood and saved through Him, didn't you get the memo?
Romans 5:9
Baptism is and does what it does by the means of the resurrection of Christ.
If you don't believe in Christ as Lord and Savior, the only thing your lukewarm water does is get you wet.

Jesus was given to die for our sins. And He was raised to life to reconcile us with God. (Rom 4:25)

Test yourselves and find out if you really are true to your faith. If you pass the test, you will know that Christ is living in you. 2 Corinthians 13:5

And you have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
What takes away sin, the blood of Jesus or is it baptism?
God takes away the sin, just as he did the leprosy of Naaman.
If the blood of Christ takes away the sins of the world, baptism can't cleanse you from what has already been removed.
The blood of Jesus is the payment for the sin one must begin a relationship with God in order to benefit from that payment... If we say "generally" the blood of Jesus takes away sin then "generally" the sin of all is taken away...
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Definition of propitiation
1: the act of gaining or regaining the favor or goodwill of someone or something : the act of propitiating : APPEASEMENT
a sacrifice in propitiation of the gods
… she showed every possible desire to conciliate him, and there was an air of humble propitiation in all she did, such as I have seen pervade the bearing of a child towards a hard master.
— Charles Dickens
2: something that propitiates or appeases
specifically : an atoning sacrifice
That does not take away the fact that a person must obey the teachings of Jesus in order to benefit from the propitiation...The fact that believers are baptized into Christ's death shows that baptism is the official way to receive the atonement
You say that you believe that it is the blood that Jesus shed for you on the cross that makes the atonement for sinners. You don't seem to know what atonement means even though I included a definition and many synonyms for atonement. You would rather die in your church traditions than believe what the Bible is saying.
blood is the payment/requirement for life...How does a believer enter into that blood covenant?
No, you can't separate the blood of Jesus and His finished work on the cross from baptism, because there is no biblical connection.
How can you say there is no biblical connection ?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Hebrews 9:26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
This verse does not tell me anything against baptism...
 

JonHawk

Active member
The blood of Jesus is the payment for the sin one must begin a relationship with God in order to benefit from that payment... If we say "generally" the blood of Jesus takes away sin then "generally" the sin of all is taken away...

That does not take away the fact that a person must obey the teachings of Jesus in order to benefit from the propitiation..
If we walk [in disobedience] in darkness, we do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13

By which we draw near to God.
Because Jesus continues forever, He has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede with God on their behalf; Heb 7:19-25

And I will ask the Father and He will give you the Holy Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever, John 14:15-19

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
If we walk [in disobedience] in darkness, we do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13

By which we draw near to God.
Because Jesus continues forever, He has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede with God on their behalf; Heb 7:19-25

And I will ask the Father and He will give you the Holy Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever, John 14:15-19

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20
thanks for supporting my post
 

JonHawk

Active member
Newbirth said:
The blood of Jesus is the payment for the sin one must begin a relationship with God in order to benefit from that payment... If we say "generally" the blood of Jesus takes away sin then "generally" the sin of all is taken away...

That does not take away the fact that a person must obey the teachings of Jesus in order to benefit from the propitiation..
If we walk [in disobedience] in darkness, we do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13

By which we draw near to God.
Because Jesus continues forever, He has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede with God on their behalf; Heb 7:19-25

And I will ask the Father and He will give you the Holy Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever, John 14:15-19

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20

And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And will I set My sanctuary in their midst forever. Ezek 37:26
thanks for supporting my post
Whatever you do, do it in singleness of heart, knowing that it is from the Lord that you will receive the inheritance. For it is the Lord Christ whom you serve. But the one who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality. Col 3:24-25

Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Deuteronomy 10:16-17
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Baptismal regeneration is the apostolic, historic biblical view of Holy baptism once delivered to the saints.
Pure foolishness!!!!!

Eph 2:8,9 is salvation which is BY FAITH gifted by God. "Baptism" isn't mentioned. I was Born again of the Spirit, Cleansed of my SIN and made NEW when I called out in FAITH for Jesus SIN OFFERING to be applied to ME, and then everything changed.

4 days later I was Baptized in the tank at Greenwood Baptist Church in Pasadena Texas. The only thing that changed afterwards was that I was WET, and needed a change of clothes.

I did it because the Bible talks about Believers being Baptized - so I was. I'd already had IT ALL for four days, and was just being obedient.

LUTHER knew that Salvation is BY FAITH, and not by "Works" religious or otherwise. That a Lutheran could teach Baptismal regeneration seems pretty questionable.
 

JonHawk

Active member
Bob Carabbio said:
Pure foolishness!!!!!

Eph 2:8,9 is salvation which is BY FAITH gifted by God. "Baptism" isn't mentioned. I was Born again of the Spirit, Cleansed of my SIN and made NEW when I called out in FAITH for Jesus SIN OFFERING to be applied to ME, and then everything changed.
4 days later I was Baptized in the tank at Greenwood Baptist Church in Pasadena Texas. The only thing that changed afterwards was that I was WET, and needed a change of clothes.
I did it because the Bible talks about Believers being Baptized - so I was. I'd already had IT ALL for four days, and was just being obedient.
LUTHER knew that Salvation is BY FAITH, and not by "Works" religious or otherwise. That a Lutheran could teach Baptismal regeneration seems pretty questionable.

Faith Practices in the Evangelical Lutheran Church
Live among God’s faithful people
“As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is
no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female;
for all of you are one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:27-28).
They gave themselves first to the Lord and, by the will of God, to us …(2 Corinthians 8:2-5).
The Lord’s Supper stands at the center of our lives as Christians. In that meal, we receive
Jesus’ presence into our very bodies. We receive God’s gifts of forgiveness of sin, new life

When the morning had now come, Jesus said to them, “Children, have you any food?”
They answered Him, “No.” And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side...
Then Jesus said to them, “Come and eat..." John 21:4-14

My servants shall eat and rejoice...Isaiah 65:13-14

We are chosen not for position or privilege, but to live as faithful witnesses to the​
good news of Jesus Christ...​
Strive for justice and peace in all the earth.​
“And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness and to walk​
humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8b).​
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God” (Matthew 5:9). Living_Our_Baptismal_Covenant.
 
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