Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

[Newbirth]

But remember, he and Moses were dead then they appeared with Jesus at His transfiguration.

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

[robycop3]

I never mention those things... I asked you if you are saved without this..Yes. I was saved Thanxgiving Day, 1978. Had to wait til April to be baptized due to weather.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

You can believe as much as you want if you are not buried and risen with Ghrist in baptism you have not been saved.

I was saved nearly 5 months before I was baptized.

The scripture does not say either of those was saved.

Jesus told the thief he would be with Jesus in paradise that day. He would not have said that to an unsaved person. Nor would He have told Zacchaeus what to do.

So why is Paul saying that salvation is nearer that when we believed in this passage?
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
ASV
And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.
Clearly he is saying that he does not have salvation yet.

You'll hafta ask Paul that question, someday. He'd already believed on Jesus & been baptized.

In another epistle, Paul tells us to work out our own salvation. If salvation is instant then there is nothing to work out...
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

He meant to show one's obedience to Jesus.

If one is saved before being baptized into Christ's death and resurrection, what is the point of being baptized into his death and resurrection?

Obedience to Jesus, following His example.

 

[Newbirth]

I was saved nearly 5 months before I was baptized.

you were not saved... If you were not baptized into Christ's death and raised with him.

Jesus told the thief he would be with Jesus in paradise that day.

That does not mean the thief was saved at that moment.

He would not have said that to an unsaved person.

but he did...

Nor would He have told Zacchaeus what to do.

He told everyone what to do. Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins...

You'll hafta ask Paul that question, someday.

I am asking you now because you are making the claim

He'd already believed on Jesus & been baptized.

and getting nearer to salvation...You are claiming you already have salvation...

He meant to show one's obedience to Jesus.

Yes Jesus said
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Obedience to Jesus, following His example.

Very good Jesus was baptized and he said it fulfilled all righteousness.
Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

 

[robycop3]

you were not saved... If you were not baptized into Christ's death and raised with him.

Yes, I WAS. Had I died before I was baptized, I woulda still died saved.

That does not mean the thief was saved at that moment.

Yes, it DOES. He would NOT have told an unsaved person that he would be in paradise with Him that day.

but he did...

when He saved them.

He told everyone what to do. Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins...

I am asking you now because you are making the claim

Paul believed on Jesus & was baptized. Thus, I don't know why he said that.

and getting nearer to salvation...You are claiming you already have salvation...

I KNOW I do.

Yes Jesus said
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Very good Jesus was baptized and he said it fulfilled all righteousness.
Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

You're wrong on so many things I'm beginning to question YOUR salvation. You incorrectly claim baptism saves people. You believe the KJVO myth. You claim I wasn't saved til I was baptized. Who knows what else you have wrong ?

 

[Newbirth]

Yes, I WAS. Had I died before I was baptized, I woulda still died saved.

How could you be saved when you did not die with Jesus and were not raised with him? Did you save yourself?

Yes, it DOES. He would NOT have told an unsaved person that he would be in paradise with Him that day.

Where do you think paradise is?...
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

when He saved them.

So why did they go to hell?
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Paul believed on Jesus & was baptized. Thus, I don't know why he said that.

I am telly you why but you refuse to listen.

I KNOW I do.

You assume that you know. But clearly you don't

You're wrong on so many things I'm beginning to question YOUR salvation.

You are yet to show any scripture to support that claim.

You incorrectly claim baptism saves people.

Actually, Peter did...
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
ASV
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
CJB
This also prefigures what delivers us now, the water of immersion, which is not the removal of dirt from the body, but one’s pledge to keep a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah.
ERV
And that water is like baptism, which now saves you. Baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body. It is asking God for a clean conscience. It saves you because Jesus Christ was raised from death.
CEV
Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.
GW
Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.

You believe the KJVO myth.

No, I don't...I posted other versions...

You claim I wasn't saved til I was baptized.

So does the bible...Choose your version...
TLB
(That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ; not because our bodies are washed clean by the water but because in being baptized we are turning to God and asking him to cleanse our hearts from sin.)
NOG
Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Yeshua Christ, who came back from death to life.
NLV
This is like baptism to us. Baptism does not mean we wash our bodies clean. It means we are saved from the punishment of sin and go to God in prayer with a heart that says we are right. This can be done because Christ was raised from the dead.

Who knows what else you have wrong ?

I don't have anything wrong.I am posting the scriptures.

 

[robycop3]

How could you be saved when you did not die with Jesus and were not raised with him? Did you save yourself?

Because I believed on Jesus and called on Him by name.
Acts 2:21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

Where do you think paradise is?...
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

In hades, in an ares separate from 'torments'. Jesus did NOT go to hell; He went to paradise as He said He would. Calling hades/sheol "hell" is a KJV mistranslation.

So why did they go to hell?
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Same mistranslation of 'hades'.

I am telly you why but you refuse to listen.

You assume that you know. But clearly you don't

You are yet to show any scripture to support that claim.

I'm 'WAY aheada you in not believing false doctrines.

Actually, Peter did...
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
ASV
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
CJB
This also prefigures what delivers us now, the water of immersion, which is not the removal of dirt from the body, but one’s pledge to keep a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah.
ERV
And that water is like baptism, which now saves you. Baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body. It is asking God for a clean conscience. It saves you because Jesus Christ was raised from death.
CEV
Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.
GW
Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.

No, I don't...I posted other versions...

So does the bible...Choose your version...
TLB
(That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ; not because our bodies are washed clean by the water but because in being baptized we are turning to God and asking him to cleanse our hearts from sin.)
NOG
Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Yeshua Christ, who came back from death to life.
NLV
This is like baptism to us. Baptism does not mean we wash our bodies clean. It means we are saved from the punishment of sin and go to God in prayer with a heart that says we are right. This can be done because Christ was raised from the dead.

ALL translations say in so many words that baptism is in obedience to Jesus.

I don't have anything wrong.I am posting the scriptures.

But many of your interps are wrong. According to you, all one need do to be saved is to be baptized. Never mind believing on & worshipping Jesus, or trying to obey Him in all things.

 

[101G]

Does that mean it wasn't really them?

is the vision of this world? my God how IGNORANT.

 

[Newbirth]

Because I believed on Jesus and called on Him by name.
Acts 2:21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

But you don't believe you have to be baptized into Jesus' death and be raised with Jesus. So how can you claim to believe on Jesus?

In hades, in an ares separate from 'torments'.

Then hell is the name of the whole place. Jesus explains this in the parable with Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus went there to get Abraham Lazarus and the thief out.

Jesus did NOT go to hell; He went to paradise as He said He would. Calling hades/sheol "hell" is a KJV mistranslation.

You can call it whatever you want but it is the place where dead people went and that is where the thief went. Jesus went there to set captives free.
Eph 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Same mistranslation of 'hades'.

But it does not help your argument. It is referring to the lower part of the earth...
Eph 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

According to the scripture Jesus was laid in a tomb. Therefore there must be a place in the lower parts of the earth where the spirit of the person went at that time.

I'm 'WAY aheada you in not believing false doctrines.

You are not ahead of anyone. You don't believe that you must be buried with Jesus in baptism

ALL translations say in so many words that baptism is in obedience to Jesus.

So why were you not obedient at the point that you believed? You waited until you were good and ready. That is the same as a person who is an adulterer saying they are saved and they will stop being an adulterer when they are good and ready.

But many of your interps are wrong.

No, they are not.

According to you, all one need do to be saved is to be baptized.

I never said that. I am saying in order to be saved you must be baptized (into Christ's death). You are saying that you are saved without baptism.

Never mind believing on & worshipping Jesus, or trying to obey Him in all things.

I never made those claims. Remember one must also speak the truth. If I wrote those things you should put a link to where I posted them

 

[robycop3]

But you don't believe you have to be baptized into Jesus' death and be raised with Jesus. So how can you claim to believe on Jesus?

I believed on Him BEFORE I was baptized.

Then hell is the name of the whole place. Jesus explains this in the parable with Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus went there to get Abraham Lazarus and the thief out.

You can call it whatever you want but it is the place where dead people went and that is where the thief went. Jesus went there to set captives free.
Eph 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

But it does not help your argument. It is referring to the lower part of the earth...
Eph 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

According to the scripture Jesus was laid in a tomb. Therefore there must be a place in the lower parts of the earth where the spirit of the person went at that time.

Hades(Hebrew sheol) is the temporary abode of the souls of the dead. Gehenna, the name of the garbage dump outside Jerusalem that burned continuously, is the name Jesus used for hell.

You are not ahead of anyone. You don't believe that you must be buried with Jesus in baptism

BELIEF is first, then, asking Him to save one. Without those things, there's no salvation, despite baptism.

So why were you not obedient at the point that you believed? You waited until you were good and ready. That is the same as a person who is an adulterer saying they are saved and they will stop being an adulterer when they are good and ready.

Bet YOU weren't baptized outside in 25 degree F. weather.

No, they are not.

Yes, they ARE. First, salvation, then baptism.

I never said that. I am saying in order to be saved you must be baptized (into Christ's death). You are saying that you are saved without baptism.

I never made those claims. Remember one must also speak the truth. If I wrote those things you should put a link to where I posted them

You're claiming that I wasn't saved til I was baptized. That's simply wrong.

 

[Newbirth]

I believed on Him BEFORE I was baptized.

Yes, faith comes by hearing the word of God. hearing alone does not save you.
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hades(Hebrew sheol) is the temporary abode of the souls of the dead. Gehenna, the name of the garbage dump outside Jerusalem that burned continuously, is the name Jesus used for hell.

Who cares? The fact remains that the thief was not saved on the cross and he did not go to heaven as you assumed.

BELIEF is first, then, asking Him to save one. Without those things, there's no salvation, despite baptism.

Asking to be saved does not save you either... You must do the will of God.
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Bet YOU weren't baptized outside in 25 degree F. weather.

If the place you got baptized was following the gospel they would have been prepared. why didn't these wait a week to be baptized?
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 16
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Yes, they ARE. First, salvation, then baptism.

Post the scripture that says so..

You're claiming that I wasn't saved til I was baptized. That's simply wrong.

Then you are saying the scripture is wrong...Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

After speaking the words of the Lord what did they do?

 

[robycop3]

I believed on Him BEFORE I was baptized.

Hades(Hebrew sheol) is the temporary abode of the souls of the dead. Gehenna, the name of the garbage dump outside Jerusalem that burned continuously, is the name Jesus used for hell.


BELIEF is first, then, asking Him to save one. Without those things, there's no salvation, despite baptism.

Bet YOU weren't baptized outside in 25 degree F. weather.

Yes, they ARE. First, salvation, then baptism.

You're claiming that I wasn't saved til I was baptized. That's simply wrong.

Yes, faith comes by hearing the word of God. hearing alone does not save you.
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Who cares? The fact remains that the thief was not saved on the cross and he did not go to heaven as you assumed.

So Jesus lied to him ? But you're right in saying he didn't go to heaven; he went to the paradise area of hades, where he is today. (Only Jesus left there.)

Asking to be saved does not save you either... You must do the will of God.
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

And belief is the will of God.

If the place you got baptized was following the gospel they would have been prepared. why didn't these wait a week to be baptized?
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 16
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

They have very mild winters there, if it was winter at the time, and they mighta had a well or cistern in the bldg. that served as a natatorium. As I said, I doubt if YOU were bqaptized outside in 25 degree weather.

Post the scripture that says so..

Every verse in whichever book that say "believe". Now, please post any that says"Be baptized, then believe."

Then you are saying the scripture is wrong...Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

You contradict yourself. Paul & Silas answered them in V 31. AGAIN, BELIEF BEFORE BAPTISM ! You're not gonna win this one !

After speaking the words of the Lord what did they do? Baptized them AFTER THEY WERE SAVED.

 

[Newbirth]

So Jesus lied to him ?

No, Jesus never said he was going to heaven.

But you're right in saying he didn't go to heaven; he went to the paradise area of hades, where he is today. (Only Jesus left there.)

Therefore he did not go to heaven. And jesus opened those gates there are no believers held prisoners there today.

And belief is the will of God.

Obedience to Jesus' commands is the will of God for you.

They have very mild winters there, if it was winter at the time, and they mighta had a well or cistern in the bldg. that served as a natatorium. As I said, I doubt if YOU were bqaptized outside in 25 degree weather.

It exposes what your church believed. They are not prepared to obey Jesus' words.

Every verse in whichever book that say "believe". Now, please post any that says"Be baptized, then believe."

That is not my argument sir...belief is proven by action. Those who believe are baptized. You pretended to believe therefore you were not baptized immediately.

You contradict yourself. Paul & Silas answered them in V 31. AGAIN, BELIEF BEFORE BAPTISM ! You're not gonna win this one !

Yes Devils also believe and tremble ...they believed and were baptized. Believing alone does not save anyone.

 

[robycop3]

No, Jesus never said he was going to heaven.

No unsaved go to paradise, either. And no human is in heaven yet.

Therefore he did not go to heaven. And jesus opened those gates there are no believers held prisoners there today.

MMRRPP ! WRONG ! Acts 2:34“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

Obedience to Jesus' commands is the will of God for you.

And that's exactly what I did and do.

It exposes what your church believed. They are not prepared to obey Jesus' words.

You must be insane. Again, I bet YOU weren't baptized outside in 25 degree weather.

That is not my argument sir...belief is proven by action. Those who believe are baptized. You pretended to believe therefore you were not baptized immediately.

And I told you why. Again, I'm beginning to believe you're 3 fries shorta a Happy Meal. Being baptized outside in below-freezing weather jeopardized the health and even the lives of both baptizer & baptizee. That's DARING GOD, something Jesus said NOT to do.

Yes Devils also believe and tremble ...they believed and were baptized. Believing alone does not save anyone.

Demons believe by first-hand sight, while we believe by faith. But demons chose to follow Satan, rather than God. And, seeiing God's true power when they rebelled, they tremble at their coming fate.

Baptism doesn't save anyone. It confirms ones already-received salvation.

I doubt if any other Christian reading this exchange believes your goofy doctrine. According to you, all one must do to be saved is have someone dunk him in water. That's simply not so. And baptizing an unsaved person only produces a wet sinner.

 

[Newbirth]

No unsaved go to paradise, either. And no human is in heaven yet.

I never said they did in any of those cases...read what I wrote.

MMRRPP ! WRONG ! Acts 2:34“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

You are not reading sir...please read what I wrote slowly...I never wrote anyone ascended to heaven...

And that's exactly what I did and do.

No, you pulled a King Saul...You did not get baptized according to Jesus ' commands. You got baptized according to your church commands.

You must be insane. Again, I bet YOU weren't baptized outside in 25 degree weather.

Your church should have been prepared... If they were teaching as the apostles taught they would have a place prepared to baptize people.

And I told you why. Again, I'm beginning to believe you're 3 fries shorta a Happy Meal. Being baptized outside in below-freezing weather jeopardized the health and even the lives of both baptizer & baptizee. That's DARING GOD, something Jesus said NOT to do.

You are not reading what I am writing. Did your church have a roof? They had no intention of baptizing anyone immediately as the apostles did.

Demons believe by first-hand sight, while we believe by faith.

You are funny...belief is Faith. You are saying that you believe by believing. James has news for you...
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

But demons chose to follow Satan, rather than God. And, seeiing God's true power when they rebelled, they tremble at their coming fate.

rabbit trail...

Baptism doesn't save anyone. It confirms ones already-received salvation.

Where is that written? I have shown you the scripture that says baptism saves you by the resurrection of jesus.....

I doubt if any other Christian reading this exchange believes your goofy doctrine.

Then they don't believe the scripture...
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

According to you, all one must do to be saved is have someone dunk him in water.

Nope, I never said that. You cannot quote me saying that. If you were a new creature you wouldn't be making false statements.

That's simply not so. And baptizing an unsaved person only produces a wet sinner.

The old unsaved person is buried, sir...
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

In your version, you are burying a saved person...

 

[Rejoran]

Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus. It does NOT wash away one's sins !

If one is saved & dies unbaptized, that one is still saved. Jesus gave us the example of the repentant thief on the cross. However, one SHOULD be baptized after salvation, if at all possible. I, & many others, were EAGER to be baptized ASAP after salvation.

So, one's mind should be at ease if one is saved, but unable to be baptized for awhile, if at all. Sometimes, it's not possible for awhile if one is saved in wintertime & one's church has no indoor natatorium. Others may be in a landwhere there's no suitable place for baptism, or there's no one available to do it. Others may have a physical condition making it impossible for them to be immersed in water. But GOD knows whether baptism is possible or not.

But don't worry if you have a terminal illness, are saved, but are unable to be baptized for awhile. You're JUST-AS-SAVED if you die first. It's JESUS who does the saving, not the water or he who baptizes one.

It bewilders me when people say remember about things that never happened or were never established, such as 'Remember when Jesus rose Peter from the dead', 'remember when Cornelius walked with Jesus on the water', 'remember that people are only saved on Sundays'. Saying "Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus." is a shortcut to give something that never existed an appearance of substance. The Bible authors spoke like they never heard about that purpose of baptism. It was never uttered until John Calvin in 1527. Yet saying "Remember..." is speaking of it as if it's older than 1527. But in the absence of any Biblical foundation, such wordings are ways that people buy into it.

 

[Rejoran]

I never said they did in any of those cases...read what I wrote.

You are not reading sir...please read what I wrote slowly...I never wrote anyone ascended to heaven...

No, you pulled a King Saul...You did not get baptized according to Jesus ' commands. You got baptized according to your church commands.

Your church should have been prepared... If they were teaching as the apostles taught they would have a place prepared to baptize people.

You are not reading what I am writing. Did your church have a roof? They had no intention of baptizing anyone immediately as the apostles did.

You are funny...belief is Faith. You are saying that you believe by believing. James has news for you...
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

rabbit trail...

Where is that written? I have shown you the scripture that says baptism saves you by the resurrection of jesus.....

Then they don't believe the scripture...
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Nope, I never said that. You cannot quote me saying that. If you were a new creature you wouldn't be making false statements.


The old unsaved person is buried, sir...
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

In your version, you are burying a saved person...

Good point.

Well, the thief on the cross died 50 days before the advent of Christian baptism, so it's difficult to see how that could be germane.

Thank you! Why don't people who invoke the thief on the cross ever consider the timing of the two events? Would anyone ever point to Abaham as a reason not to observe the passover. Yet they make the equivalent argument that a man who died before the baptism of the Great commission was an exception to it.

 

[Rejoran]

The whole body of Scripture, but especially the incident of the repentant thief on the cross whom Jesus saved, although he couldn't possible be baptized, & whose death was imminent.

"The whole body of Scripture", the Spirit of the letter, 'It's clearly there' are just other ways of saying it's not in scripture. There's something wrong when major belief system pillars (e.g.-faith "alone", baptism public declaration/christian's first act of obedience, etc. in the same way infant baptism is justified) that is practiced with thousands or millions of people, can only allegedly be found in between lines of Scripture is scary. What's written in scripture is more reliable than taking another's word that this is really what the Bible authors meant instead.

 

[Newbirth]

The whole body of Scripture, but especially the incident of the repentant thief on the cross whom Jesus saved, although he couldn't possible be baptized, & whose death was imminent.

That is a poor argument. Jesus left specific instructions with the apostles. It's amazing how, even after hearing it so many times, people continue to try to pull the King Saul.look at the command
1 Sam15
1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
This is what King Saul did...
7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
And here is the conclusion...
13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.
14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord, thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.
16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.
17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointed thee king over Israel?
18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?
20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.
21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.
22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.
26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

You guys learned from King Saul very well.

 

[Fred]

christian's first act of obedience

Which is precisely what took place with Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him.

 

[Rejoran]

Which is precisely what took place with Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him.

Matthew 12:34 out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
No Bible author ever spoke of baptism as a christian's first act of obedience, signifying it was not on "their" heart. You say this is precisely what took place. So precise that no one ever said as much. There is no way for anyone to make it seem like they conceived of baptism in Jesus's name in such a way. It's people today saying it on their behalf, without their consent.


Baptism as an alleged christian's first act of obedience is an inferred modern idea, originated in 1651
The Faith and Practise of Thirty Congregations Gathered According to the Primitive Pattern

Published (in love) by consent of two from each Congregation, appointed for that purpose.

London, Printed by J. M. for Will. Larnar, at the Blackmore neer Fleet-bridge, 1651.

49. That when Baptisme is made known, or any other Action of obedience, then for men to refuse it, they are said to reject the counsel of God against themselves; Luk. 7. 30.


no earlier than that.