Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

[robycop3]

So the circular reasoning begins again...Nan will ask, what condemns a person? Nan forgot all have sinned therefore all are already condemned before even hearing about Jesus...
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[/QUOTE]
Again & again, I shall remind you of the repentant thief on the cross that jesus saved, altho he couldn't be baptized.

The argument that this was before Jesus died, bringing the New Covenant into force, is not valid, as many others were saved & baptized before Jesus died. 'Twas the same Jesus who saved those people, & who saves us now.

GOD knows whether one can be baptized or not. We can fool other men, but not GOD. As I said, I was EAGER to be baptized, but it wasn't possible in winter. And, there are people who can't be safely immersed completely in water, if immersed at all. Again, GOD knows. But I think everyone who's saved wants to be baptized ASAP.

 

[Our Lord's God]

that is a cop out...this should wipe away your doubts...
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

He believed and was baptized...plain and simple...If you have a problem take it up with Philip...

Again & again, I shall remind you of the repentant thief on the cross that jesus saved, altho he couldn't be baptized.
Again & again, I shall remind you of the repentant thief on the cross that jesus saved, altho he couldn't be baptized.

The argument that this was before Jesus died, bringing the New Covenant into force, is not valid, as many others were saved & baptized before Jesus died. 'Twas the same Jesus who saved those people, & who saves us now.

GOD knows whether one can be baptized or not. We can fool other men, but not GOD. As I said, I was EAGER to be baptized, but it wasn't possible in winter. And, there are people who can't be safely immersed completely in water, if immersed at all. Again, GOD knows. But I think everyone who's saved wants to be baptized ASAP.
[/QUOTE]


Water baptism is dying with Christ, being crucified together with him.

What was the thief doing?

The argument that this was before Jesus died, bringing the New Covenant into force, is not valid, as many others were saved & baptized before Jesus died. 'Twas the same Jesus who saved those people, & who saves us now.

GOD knows whether one can be baptized or not. We can fool other men, but not GOD. As I said, I was EAGER to be baptized, but it wasn't possible in winter. And, there are people who can't be safely immersed completely in water, if immersed at all. Again, GOD knows. But I think everyone who's saved wants to be baptized ASAP.
[/QUOTE]

 

[robycop3]

Again & again, I shall remind you of the repentant thief on the cross that jesus saved, altho he couldn't be baptized.

Again & again, I shall remind you of the repentant thief on the cross that jesus saved, altho he couldn't be baptized.

The argument that this was before Jesus died, bringing the New Covenant into force, is not valid, as many others were saved & baptized before Jesus died. 'Twas the same Jesus who saved those people, & who saves us now.

GOD knows whether one can be baptized or not. We can fool other men, but not GOD. As I said, I was EAGER to be baptized, but it wasn't possible in winter. And, there are people who can't be safely immersed completely in water, if immersed at all. Again, GOD knows. But I think everyone who's saved wants to be baptized ASAP.

Water baptism is dying with Christ, being crucified together with him.

What was the thief doing?

The argument that this was before Jesus died, bringing the New Covenant into force, is not valid, as many others were saved & baptized before Jesus died. 'Twas the same Jesus who saved those people, & who saves us now.

GOD knows whether one can be baptized or not. We can fool other men, but not GOD. As I said, I was EAGER to be baptized, but it wasn't possible in winter. And, there are people who can't be safely immersed completely in water, if immersed at all. Again, GOD knows. But I think everyone who's saved wants to be baptized ASAP.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
Won't work. How about those who were saved/baptized a good while before Jesus died ?

 

[Our Lord's God]

Water baptism is dying with Christ, being crucified together with him.

What was the thief doing?

The argument that this was before Jesus died, bringing the New Covenant into force, is not valid, as many others were saved & baptized before Jesus died. 'Twas the same Jesus who saved those people, & who saves us now.

GOD knows whether one can be baptized or not. We can fool other men, but not GOD. As I said, I was EAGER to be baptized, but it wasn't possible in winter. And, there are people who can't be safely immersed completely in water, if immersed at all. Again, GOD knows. But I think everyone who's saved wants to be baptized ASAP.

[/QUOTE]
Won't work. How about those who were saved/baptized a good while before Jesus died ?
[/QUOTE]

That wasn't my argument.

Water baptism is dying with Christ, being crucified together with him.

What was the thief doing?

 

[Newbirth]

We were discussing water baptism (#555). Please address my post.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

He believed and was baptized...plain and simple...If you have a problem take it up with Philip...

 

[Newbirth]

Is it too much to ask you to focus on Mark 16:16?

According to that verse, what is it that condemns a person?

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Where do you see anything except unbelief that condemns?

We are discussing who believes not what condemns a person...According to the scripture, God concluded all under sin so all were already condemned ....So is it believe alone to be saved or believe and be baptized to be saved...?

 

[Thistle]

Is it too much to ask you to focus on Mark 16:16?

According to that verse, what is it that condemns a person?

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Where do you see anything except unbelief that condemns?

Nan, you are completely misreading this verse. You are getting the first part wrong so you can't interpret the second part.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;"​

Does this passage propose to tell we what we are saved by? We are saved "by grace" correct? We could unpack everything that made that grace possible, efficacious, and sufficient, all of God's redemptive works culminating in the cross work of Christ, namely the shedding of his blood. But this verse doesn't mention the powerful working of God in our salvation which is grace.

It does propose to tell us about the instrumental means of receiving salvation which is belief or faith. It also proposes to identify the threshold of salvation which is baptism.

Everyone agrees that baptism without faith simply makes you wet. Baptism without faith is not the threshold of salvation. So it makes perfect sense to mention belief in the second half, the negation half of the verse. That does not mean that baptism is not the threshold of salvation.

 

[Newbirth]

Again & again, I shall remind you of the repentant thief on the cross that jesus saved, altho he couldn't be baptized.

I already explained that to you, sir...Where did Jesus go when he died?
1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit....
Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The argument that this was before Jesus died, bringing the New Covenant into force, is not valid, as many others were saved & baptized before Jesus died. 'Twas the same Jesus who saved those people, & who saves us now.

Those same people had to wait on the promise of the father to be sealed...
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

GOD knows whether one can be baptized or not.

and so what ??? why didn't they obey before?...are you saying that was the first time they heard the word of God...

We can fool other men, but not GOD. As I said, I was EAGER to be baptized, but it wasn't possible in winter.

You don't take baths in winter?

And, there are people who can't be safely immersed completely in water, if immersed at all.

people don't take baths?

Again, GOD knows. But I think everyone who's saved wants to be baptized ASAP.

Because it is necessary...Mark 16:16...

 

[nan]

So it makes perfect sense to mention belief in the second half, the negation half of the verse.

It doesn't mention belief in the second half.

That does not mean that baptism is not the threshold of salvation.

Baptism doesn't save.

 

[nan]

Does this passage propose to tell we what we are saved by? We are saved "by grace" correct? We could unpack everything that made that grace possible, efficacious, and sufficient, all of God's redemptive works culminating in the cross work of Christ, namely the shedding of his blood. But this verse doesn't mention the powerful working of God in our salvation which is grace.

It does propose to tell us about the instrumental means of receiving salvation which is belief or faith. It also proposes to identify the threshold of salvation which is baptism.

Everyone agrees that baptism without faith simply makes you wet. Baptism without faith is not the threshold of salvation. So it makes perfect sense to mention belief in the second half, the negation half of the verse. That does not mean that baptism is not the threshold of salvation.

You still haven't answered not only my question but that of my fellow believers here.

What does the verse say condemns a person? Unbelief or failure to be baptized?

 

[nan]

We are discussing who believes not what condemns a person...According to the scripture, God concluded all under sin so all were already condemned ....So is it believe alone to be saved or believe and be baptized to be saved...?

He who believes is saved. He who does not believe is condemned. Quite simple, really.

 

[Thistle]

It doesn't mention belief in the second half.

" he that believeth not "​

​

How is "believeth not" not about belief?

Baptism doesn't save.

Did you read what I wrote? We are saved by grace [the power by which we are saved]. This verse does not deal with that. We are saved through faith [the instrumental means of salvation] and this verse does deal with that. Likewise we are saved in baptism, [the moment God bestows the gifts of grace] and this verse does deal with that.

Why are you pretending like I didn't say that?

 

[nan]

" he that believeth not "​

​

How is "believeth not" not about belief?

You said it makes perfect sense to mention belief in the second half.

Belief is not mentioned. Unbelief is used. There is a marked difference.

 

[nan]

Did you read what I wrote? We are saved by grace [the power by which we are saved]. This verse does not deal with that. We are saved through faith [the instrumental means of salvation] and this verse does deal with that. Likewise we are saved in baptism, [the moment God bestows the gifts of grace] and this verse does deal with that.

Why are you pretending like I didn't say that?

With due respect, at this point I'm not sure even you know what you said.

You can ramble on about baptism all you like, but the fact remains that you have not answered my question. What condemns a person? Unbelief or failure to be baptized?

 

[Thistle]

You said it makes perfect sense to mention belief in the second half.

Yes, it makes prefect sense.

Belief is not mentioned. Unbelief is used.

The absence or presence of belief, is about believe. We are looking for the belief condition, and it's is addressed.

There is a marked difference.

The absence or presence of a smoking gun, is about the smoking gun.

 

[Thistle]

With due respect, at this point I'm not sure even you know what you said.

How does that indicate respect? I know exactly what I said, do you? If you have a question about it why aren't you asking that question?

You can ramble on about baptism all you like, but the fact remains that you have not answered my question. What condemns a person?

God does, for the reason of sin. That is why everyone is condemned.

Unbelief or failure to be baptized?

Neither one of those is the reason people are condemned. Have you ever read a systematic theology? Mark 16:16 doesn't propose to answer the question you raise. To say that someone will be condemned is not to tell you why they are condemned. Even to specify certain conditions under which they will be condemned is not to answer why they will be condemned.

If you let us tie your hands behind your back, then tie you to this post, and wear this blind fold, and smoke this cigarette, you will be shot. That doesn't tell you why you are being shot. That just describes the conditions that obtain at the moment you are shot.

 

[Newbirth]

You still haven't answered not only my question but that of my fellow believers here.

What does the verse say condemns a person? Unbelief or failure to be baptized?

Talk about what saves a person in the verse. No one is concerned about condemnation...God concluded all under sin so all is already condemned to start with...the only way out is to be saved...what does the verse say to do to be saved?....that is the solution...failure to do so you will be damned...

 

[Newbirth]

With due respect, at this point I'm not sure even you know what you said.

You can ramble on about baptism all you like, but the fact remains that you have not answered my question. What condemns a person? Unbelief or failure to be baptized?

A person is originally condemned...you are willfully ignorant...The point of the verse is about being saved...before being saved everyone was under condemnation....The verse is telling you what to do to be saved, focus on that...What does the verse tell you to do to be saved? Answer that.

 

[nan]

Yes, it makes prefect sense.

The absence or presence of belief, is about believe. We are looking for the belief condition, and it's is addressed.

The absence or presence of a smoking gun, is about the smoking gun.

Do you know the difference between belief and unbelief?

Unbelief in the second part of that verse is what condemns.

 

[nan]

God does, for the reason of sin. That is why everyone is condemned.

All are condemned because of unbelief.