Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

nan

Well-known member
To say that someone will be condemned is not to tell you why they are condemned. Even to specify certain conditions under which they will be condemned is not to answer why they will be condemned.
We are condemned due to unbelief. Period.
 

robycop3

Active member
Won't work. How about those who were saved/baptized a good while before Jesus died ?
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That wasn't my argument.

Water baptism is dying with Christ, being crucified together with him.

What was the thief doing?

[/QUOTE]
Jesus doed before the thief.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
Do you know the difference between belief and unbelief?
Yes
Unbelief in the second part of that verse is what condemns.
Unbelief cannot condemn anything or anyone. Unbelief has no volition and therefore is not capable of acting on its own behalf. God condemns and God condemns on the ground of sin. The verse is not teaching that unbelief has agency. And it is not teaching that unbelief is an agent of God carried out or to bring about condemnation. The verse is not intended to repudiate Romans 3:23 that tells us that all have send and fallen short of the glory of God.
 

nan

Well-known member
Yes

Unbelief cannot condemn anything or anyone. Unbelief has no volition and therefore is not capable of acting on its own behalf. God condemns and God condemns on the ground of sin. The verse is not teaching that unbelief has agency. And it is not teaching that unbelief is an agent of God carried out or to bring about condemnation. The verse is not intended to repudiate Romans 3:23 that tells us that all have send and fallen short of the glory of God.
Unbelief is the absence of faith. Unbelief condemns. Do you know to whom this unbelief is directed?

The Israelites could not enter the Promised Land because of their unbelief and spent 40 years wandering in the desert; one year for each of the 40 days they spent spying out the land.

This meandering only ended when those twenty years or older (with two exceptions) had fallen. Consequences for their unbelief.

19 “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief”.
 

nan

Well-known member
Therefore Romans 3:23 is a lie. Are you sure about that?
Of course we’re all sinners. If we weren’t why did Jesus suffer and die for us?

Romans 3:21 “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
 

UncleAbee

Member
Read it again. Water baptism takes place after one believes. Belief is what saves you. Not baptism.
According to the bible many things save.

Endurance saves - Matt 10:22 - and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Faith saves - Luke 7:50 - And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Confession saves - Rom 10:10 - For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Holding to the gospel saves - 1 Cor 15:1-2 - Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
Baptism saves - 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, .......
Obedience saves - Heb 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

It's not just belief that saves.
 

robycop3

Active member
Quotes from robycop3. My answers in red.

Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus. It does NOT wash away one's sins ! - This is stated no where in the bible.

If one is saved & dies unbaptized, that one is still saved. Jesus gave us the example of the repentant thief on the cross. However, one SHOULD be baptized after salvation, if at all possible. I, & many others, were EAGER to be baptized ASAP after salvation. - I think this is a bad example to build doctrine on because of two reasons. 1) This is a "one off" example. This is not the normal example for people being saved or converting to Christianity post Jesus death. What I do see this as is an example that Jesus can save a person even in the 12th hour and in unnormal and unusual situations. I would not use this as the common pattern for salvation though. The majority of people will hear the gospel and have the opportunity to respond. 2) People using this excuse are never in that situation. All these "what ifs" make me laugh. What if I was on a plane and it was about to crash? What if I had no access to water? What if I was sick and couldn't get out the bed to get in the water? The person that brings this up is never in that situation. My answer is always "but I am talking to you hear & now & there is a baptismal pool right down the hall."

So, one's mind should be at ease if one is saved, but unable to be baptized for awhile, if at all. Sometimes, it's not possible for awhile if one is saved in wintertime & one's church has no indoor natatorium. Others may be in a land where there's no suitable place for baptism, or there's no one available to do it. Others may have a physical condition making it impossible for them to be immersed in water. But GOD knows whether baptism is possible or not. - I would call all these unusual situations. The majority of people will have access to a baptismal pool.

But don't worry if you have a terminal illness, are saved, but are unable to be baptized for awhile. You're JUST-AS-SAVED if you die first. It's JESUS who does the saving, not the water or he who baptizes one. - Again unusual and out of the norm situations. Jesus will make allowances for these situations. What the normal person needs to do is hear the gospel, believe it, repent, and be baptized towards salvation.
I have not said any differently.

However, I have read of people in Russia who insisted on being baptized outdoors in below-zero weather. However noble their intent, I believe they were DARING GOD TO PROTECT THEM, in violation of His warning not to dare Him. While I wanted to be baptized, I didn't wanna dare God. Being baptized outdoors in winter would be almost as dangerous (To the baptizer as well as the baptizee) as being baptized outdoors on a seashore during a storm surge.
 

Newbirth

Member
I have not said any differently.

However, I have read of people in Russia who insisted on being baptized outdoors in below-zero weather. However noble their intent, I believe they were DARING GOD TO PROTECT THEM, in violation of His warning not to dare Him. While I wanted to be baptized, I didn't wanna dare God. Being baptized outdoors in winter would be almost as dangerous (To the baptizer as well as the baptizee) as being baptized outdoors on a seashore during a storm surge.
there is no command to be baptized outdoors or on a beach in a storm...your argument is nonsensical...You are trying to defend a silly position. It is either baptism is necessary or not necessary. Acts 10
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

you seem to be openly challenging Peter's position here, Why would Peter command them to do what is not necessary?
 

robycop3

Active member
there is no command to be baptized outdoors or on a beach in a storm...your argument is nonsensical...You are trying to defend a silly position. It is either baptism is necessary or not necessary. Acts 10
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

you seem to be openly challenging Peter's position here, Why would Peter command them to do what is not necessary?
Because they WERE able to be baptized almost immediately. One cannot be baptized if there's no water to be baptized in, or the weather doesn't permit, in the absence of an indoor facility. Don't act so stupid ! I know you're NOT stupid, but neither am I. So, ACT like it !
 

nan

Well-known member
According to the bible many things save.

Endurance saves - Matt 10:22 - and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Faith saves - Luke 7:50 - And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Confession saves - Rom 10:10 - For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Holding to the gospel saves - 1 Cor 15:1-2 - Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
Baptism saves - 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, .......
Obedience saves - Heb 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

It's not just belief that saves.
Faith is the only way we are saved.

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

First Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

First John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

There are many more.
 

Newbirth

Member
Because they WERE able to be baptized almost immediately.
He commanded them to be baptized...Therefore baptism is necessary...
One cannot be baptized if there's no water to be baptized in, or the weather doesn't permit, in the absence of an indoor facility.
I don't see how that makes baptism not necessary
Don't act so stupid !
Now, look at this...why do you want to go down that road?
I know you're NOT stupid, but neither am I. So, ACT like it !
damage is done sir nothing was stopping you from deleting that comment...I hope you can take it when I do likewise...
 

robycop3

Active member
He commanded them to be baptized...Therefore baptism is necessary...

I don't see how that makes baptism not necessary

Now, look at this...why do you want to go down that road?

damage is done sir nothing was stopping you from deleting that comment...I hope you can take it when I do likewise...
You're being silly again. One can't be baptized without water.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
Unbelief is the absence of faith.
Condemnation dates back to the garden of Eden.
Unbelief condemns.
God condemned by way of the curse mankind in the garden of Eden.
Do you know to whom this unbelief is directed?
Every sin of every kind is a trespass against God.
The Israelites could not enter the Promised Land because of their unbelief and spent 40 years wandering in the desert; one year for each of the 40 days they spent spying out the land.
40 years of wandering in the wilderness is light-years from eternal condemnation.
This meandering only ended when those twenty years or older (with two exceptions) had fallen. Consequences for their unbelief.
Moses and Abraham didn't get to go into the promised land for the purpose of receiving it as a possession either.
19 “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief”.
The delay of entering the promised land by one generation after 400 years in Egypt is not analogous to eternal damnation.
 

Newbirth

Member
You're being silly again. One can't be baptized without water.
I don't see how that makes baptism not necessary sir...You are being willfully ignorant... Your argument is the same as.. There is no water to quench thirst, one cannot quench his thirst without water, therefore quenching thirst is not necessary.
 

nan

Well-known member
Condemnation dates back to the garden of Eden.
No one said otherwise. But it was disobedience, not lack of faith, that condemned Adam and Eve.

God condemned by way of the curse mankind in the garden of Eden.
The consequences of their sin led to the hardships and sufferings which have been inherited by humans ever since.
 
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