SovereignGrace
Well-known member
Actually, those who do not believe are condemned already, per John 3:18.All are condemned because of unbelief.
Actually, those who do not believe are condemned already, per John 3:18.All are condemned because of unbelief.
We are condemned due to unbelief. Period.To say that someone will be condemned is not to tell you why they are condemned. Even to specify certain conditions under which they will be condemned is not to answer why they will be condemned.
and all who believe and are baptized shall be saved...All are condemned because of unbelief.
and we shall be saved if we believe and are baptized...We are condemned due to unbelief. Period.
YesDo you know the difference between belief and unbelief?
Unbelief cannot condemn anything or anyone. Unbelief has no volition and therefore is not capable of acting on its own behalf. God condemns and God condemns on the ground of sin. The verse is not teaching that unbelief has agency. And it is not teaching that unbelief is an agent of God carried out or to bring about condemnation. The verse is not intended to repudiate Romans 3:23 that tells us that all have send and fallen short of the glory of God.Unbelief in the second part of that verse is what condemns.
Therefore Romans 3:23 is a lie. Are you sure about that?We are condemned due to unbelief. Period.
What is it?
Unbelief is the absence of faith. Unbelief condemns. Do you know to whom this unbelief is directed?Yes
Unbelief cannot condemn anything or anyone. Unbelief has no volition and therefore is not capable of acting on its own behalf. God condemns and God condemns on the ground of sin. The verse is not teaching that unbelief has agency. And it is not teaching that unbelief is an agent of God carried out or to bring about condemnation. The verse is not intended to repudiate Romans 3:23 that tells us that all have send and fallen short of the glory of God.
Of course we’re all sinners. If we weren’t why did Jesus suffer and die for us?Therefore Romans 3:23 is a lie. Are you sure about that?
According to the bible many things save.Read it again. Water baptism takes place after one believes. Belief is what saves you. Not baptism.
I have not said any differently.Quotes from robycop3. My answers in red.
Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus. It does NOT wash away one's sins ! - This is stated no where in the bible.
If one is saved & dies unbaptized, that one is still saved. Jesus gave us the example of the repentant thief on the cross. However, one SHOULD be baptized after salvation, if at all possible. I, & many others, were EAGER to be baptized ASAP after salvation. - I think this is a bad example to build doctrine on because of two reasons. 1) This is a "one off" example. This is not the normal example for people being saved or converting to Christianity post Jesus death. What I do see this as is an example that Jesus can save a person even in the 12th hour and in unnormal and unusual situations. I would not use this as the common pattern for salvation though. The majority of people will hear the gospel and have the opportunity to respond. 2) People using this excuse are never in that situation. All these "what ifs" make me laugh. What if I was on a plane and it was about to crash? What if I had no access to water? What if I was sick and couldn't get out the bed to get in the water? The person that brings this up is never in that situation. My answer is always "but I am talking to you hear & now & there is a baptismal pool right down the hall."
So, one's mind should be at ease if one is saved, but unable to be baptized for awhile, if at all. Sometimes, it's not possible for awhile if one is saved in wintertime & one's church has no indoor natatorium. Others may be in a land where there's no suitable place for baptism, or there's no one available to do it. Others may have a physical condition making it impossible for them to be immersed in water. But GOD knows whether baptism is possible or not. - I would call all these unusual situations. The majority of people will have access to a baptismal pool.
But don't worry if you have a terminal illness, are saved, but are unable to be baptized for awhile. You're JUST-AS-SAVED if you die first. It's JESUS who does the saving, not the water or he who baptizes one. - Again unusual and out of the norm situations. Jesus will make allowances for these situations. What the normal person needs to do is hear the gospel, believe it, repent, and be baptized towards salvation.
there is no command to be baptized outdoors or on a beach in a storm...your argument is nonsensical...You are trying to defend a silly position. It is either baptism is necessary or not necessary. Acts 10I have not said any differently.
However, I have read of people in Russia who insisted on being baptized outdoors in below-zero weather. However noble their intent, I believe they were DARING GOD TO PROTECT THEM, in violation of His warning not to dare Him. While I wanted to be baptized, I didn't wanna dare God. Being baptized outdoors in winter would be almost as dangerous (To the baptizer as well as the baptizee) as being baptized outdoors on a seashore during a storm surge.
Because they WERE able to be baptized almost immediately. One cannot be baptized if there's no water to be baptized in, or the weather doesn't permit, in the absence of an indoor facility. Don't act so stupid ! I know you're NOT stupid, but neither am I. So, ACT like it !there is no command to be baptized outdoors or on a beach in a storm...your argument is nonsensical...You are trying to defend a silly position. It is either baptism is necessary or not necessary. Acts 10
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
you seem to be openly challenging Peter's position here, Why would Peter command them to do what is not necessary?
Faith is the only way we are saved.According to the bible many things save.
Endurance saves - Matt 10:22 - and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Faith saves - Luke 7:50 - And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Confession saves - Rom 10:10 - For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Holding to the gospel saves - 1 Cor 15:1-2 - Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
Baptism saves - 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, .......
Obedience saves - Heb 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
It's not just belief that saves.
He commanded them to be baptized...Therefore baptism is necessary...Because they WERE able to be baptized almost immediately.
I don't see how that makes baptism not necessaryOne cannot be baptized if there's no water to be baptized in, or the weather doesn't permit, in the absence of an indoor facility.
Now, look at this...why do you want to go down that road?Don't act so stupid !
damage is done sir nothing was stopping you from deleting that comment...I hope you can take it when I do likewise...I know you're NOT stupid, but neither am I. So, ACT like it !
You're being silly again. One can't be baptized without water.He commanded them to be baptized...Therefore baptism is necessary...
I don't see how that makes baptism not necessary
Now, look at this...why do you want to go down that road?
damage is done sir nothing was stopping you from deleting that comment...I hope you can take it when I do likewise...
Condemnation dates back to the garden of Eden.Unbelief is the absence of faith.
God condemned by way of the curse mankind in the garden of Eden.Unbelief condemns.
Every sin of every kind is a trespass against God.Do you know to whom this unbelief is directed?
40 years of wandering in the wilderness is light-years from eternal condemnation.The Israelites could not enter the Promised Land because of their unbelief and spent 40 years wandering in the desert; one year for each of the 40 days they spent spying out the land.
Moses and Abraham didn't get to go into the promised land for the purpose of receiving it as a possession either.This meandering only ended when those twenty years or older (with two exceptions) had fallen. Consequences for their unbelief.
The delay of entering the promised land by one generation after 400 years in Egypt is not analogous to eternal damnation.19 “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief”.
I don't see how that makes baptism not necessary sir...You are being willfully ignorant... Your argument is the same as.. There is no water to quench thirst, one cannot quench his thirst without water, therefore quenching thirst is not necessary.You're being silly again. One can't be baptized without water.
No one said otherwise. But it was disobedience, not lack of faith, that condemned Adam and Eve.Condemnation dates back to the garden of Eden.
The consequences of their sin led to the hardships and sufferings which have been inherited by humans ever since.God condemned by way of the curse mankind in the garden of Eden.