Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

Thistle

Well-known member
No one said otherwise.
Who disbelieved in the garden of Eden? The condemnation God pronounced in the Garden of Eden did not turn on disbelief. That is the same condemnation that prevails to this day. It is the same condemnation for which the lost will be cast into the lake of fire.
But it was disobedience, not lack of faith, that condemned Adam and Eve.
And everyone who lives a perfect life, historically, perpetually and cumulatively is not condemned, thus redemption is not an issue. Such a person would never come tangent to the issue of redemption. Believing or disbelieving in redemption would never come up. It simply would not apply to them in any way shape or form.
The consequences of their sin led to the hardships and sufferings which have been inherited by humans ever since.
And eternal condemnation.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
When we commit sin it is against God and Him alone (Psalm 51:4).

And the unbelief that condemns is that lack of faith towards the Lord Jesus Christ.
We live in a world where disbelief is fashionable, but in the 19th century a lot of people believed, but preferred to live like the devil so they could be a pirate or whatever the case may be. I hope you are not going to argue that their faith and certain knowledge that they were headed strait to hell saved them.
 

nan

Well-known member
40 years of wandering in the wilderness is light-years from eternal condemnation.
You claimed that unbelief cannot condemn anything or anyone.

Do you know why the Israelites spent forty years wandering in the desert? Because of the disobedience and lack of faith on the part of eight of those men. It's all recorded very clearly in Numbers, Chapters 31 and 32. It's a very easy read.
 

robycop3

Active member
I don't see how that makes baptism not necessary sir...You are being willfully ignorant... Your argument is the same as.. There is no water to quench thirst, one cannot quench his thirst without water, therefore quenching thirst is not necessary.
One is still saved if one can't be baptized, as Jesus' saving the thief on the cross proves.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
One is still saved if one can't be baptized, as Jesus' saving the thief on the cross proves.
Bro the thief on the cross falls under OT law he does not know the resurrected Jesus in his lifetime. The apostles had to wait for the promise of the father to be sealed with the holy spirit. How is the thief saved? While he was alive or after he was dead?
 

robycop3

Active member
Bro the thief on the cross falls under OT law he does not know the resurrected Jesus in his lifetime. The apostles had to wait for the promise of the father to be sealed with the holy spirit. How is the thief saved? While he was alive or after he was dead?
According to Jesus' words, he was saved while still alive, naturally.

So, those who were baptized before Jesus was crucified had a different kinda salvation from ours ?
 

Thistle

Well-known member
You claimed that unbelief cannot condemn anything or anyone.
That is correct.
Do you know why the Israelites spent forty years wandering in the desert? Because of the disobedience and lack of faith on the part of eight of those men. It's all recorded very clearly in Numbers, Chapters 31 and 32. It's a very easy read.
Moses was one of the people not permitted to enter the promise land. It is your testimony that God condemned Moses?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
According to Jesus' words, he was saved while still alive, naturally.
please show those words sir
So, those who were baptized before Jesus was crucified had a different kinda salvation from ours ?
Did Jesus die to pay for our sins? If he did, how are you saying that people are saved before he died to pay for the sins?
Isaiah 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
 

Thistle

Well-known member
No. Do you know why Moses wasn't able to enter Canaan?
Yes, I do. But if not entering the promise land is condemnation then Moses was condemned. If it's not condemnation then your prior comment is not germane. I'm just trying to figure out whether it's your position that not entering the promise land is condemnation or not, because at the moment you have it both ways all at once.
 

nan

Well-known member
Yes, I do. But if not entering the promise land is condemnation then Moses was condemned. If it's not condemnation then your prior comment is not germane. I'm just trying to figure out whether it's your position that not entering the promise land is condemnation or not, because at the moment you have it both ways all at once.
Are you speaking of condemnation as being 'eternal' condemnation?

Why was Moses not allowed to enter Canaan?
 

Thistle

Well-known member
Are you speaking of condemnation as being 'eternal' condemnation?
We are talking about Mark 16:16, so yes.
Why was Moses not allowed to enter Canaan?
Moses struck the rock at Meribah [see Numbers 20:8]; so what does Numbers have to do with Mark 16:16?

However that may be, did you decide that not entering the promise land was condemnation or not?
 

nan

Well-known member
We are talking about Mark 16:16, so yes.

Moses struck the rock at Meribah [see Numbers 20:8]; so what does Numbers have to do with Mark 16:16?
You're the one who brought him up. And we were not discussing baptism.
However that may be, did you decide that not entering the promise land was condemnation or not?
Well, since you refer to condemnation as being 'eternal', then no. Nowhere does it say that Moses was eternally dammed because of his disobedience. Would God have buried Moses if his destination was the lake of fire?
 

Thistle

Well-known member
You're the one who brought him up. And we were not discussing baptism.
You offered not entering the promise land as an equivalent of condemnation [condemnation which is in the passage]. So in point of fact, you brought it up, not me.
Well, since you refer to condemnation as being 'eternal', then no.
Okay we agree. That is the context of "condemnation" in Mark 16:16.
Nowhere does it say that Moses was eternally dammed because of his disobedience.
We are not told that the generation that died in the wilderness was eternally dammed either. I think this whole passage in Numbers is tangential to the discussion of Mark 16:16.
Would God have buried Moses if his destination was the lake of fire?
No, I think this whole diversion is a complete rabbit hole.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
You are not concerned about condemnation?
No, why should I be?
We must believe to be saved.
The hypocritical answer, the verse is clear...he that believes and is baptized shall be saved..
What must you believe? Can you explain what Peter told the people in Acts 2:38...and what Philip told the eunuch here...why would the eunuch want to be baptized if no one told him that he must be baptized?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him, Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

So here is the end of the matter concerning baptism... If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
Those who don't believe with all their heart have no desire to be baptized...plain and simple...
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
No, why should I be?

The hypocritical answer, the verse is clear...he that believes and is baptized shall be saved..
What must you believe? Can you explain what Peter told the people in Acts 2:38...and what Philip told the eunuch here...why would the eunuch want to be baptized if no one told him that he must be baptized?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him, Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

So here is the end of the matter concerning baptism... If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
Those who don't believe with all their heart have no desire to be baptized...plain and simple...

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38 And he ordered that the chariot stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. NASB

Now what?
 
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