Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Bro the thief on the cross falls under OT law he does not know the resurrected Jesus in his lifetime. The apostles had to wait for the promise of the father to be sealed with the holy spirit. How is the thief saved? While he was alive or after he was dead?
It mattered enough that Jesus responded to him by telling him he would be in paradise that very day.

Luke 23:39-42 ESV

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
 

UncleAbee

Active member
Faith is the only way we are saved.

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

First Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

First John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

There are many more.
All the scriptures you quote do say that belief saves. They do not negate all the ones I quoted that say other things save as well.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
It mattered enough that Jesus responded to him by telling him he would be in paradise that very day.

Luke 23:39-42 ESV

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
In a Garden...that is the place where Abraham was with the dead saints...
1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38 And he ordered that the chariot stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. NASB

Now what?
follow Jesus teachings....anyone who asks that question does not know why he or she was baptized
 

nan

Well-known member
All the scriptures you quote do say that belief saves. They do not negate all the ones I quoted that say other things save as well.
You're not listening.

What are the 'other things that save as well'? Or 'in addition to'?

Why would God say we're saved by faith but then tell us we're saved by something else?
 

UncleAbee

Active member
You're not listening.

What are the 'other things that save as well'? Or 'in addition to'?

Why would God say we're saved by faith but then tell us we're saved by something else?
Hmmmm ..... let's say I wrote a 10 page letter on riding a bike. On the 1st page I said "to ride a bike one needs a helmet." On the last page I said "you can't ride a bike without proper shoes." Does saying both statements cancel one of them out or are they both true?

Matthew 24:13 - (endurance saves) But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved.
Luke 7:50 - (faith saves) And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Acts 15:11 - (grace saves) But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
1 Peter 3:21 - (baptism saves) Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Heb 5:9 (obedience saves) - And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him,

All of the above save. None cancel any of the other out. You cherry pick salvation verses by focusing on the faith saving verses and ignoring all the rest. Read Matt 25:31-46. Where does Jesus say anything about faith saving you? According to that passage one is saved by the work (benevolence) that they do.
 

nan

Well-known member
Belief/faith without works is dead being alone .....baptism is the work that brings your faith alive...
There isn't one single verse in all of scripture that says baptism brings your faith alive.

Works accompany salvation. They are living proof that the faith by which you are saved is a saving faith. A dead faith, that which does not produce works is a dead faith. It saves no one.

p.s. did you just admit that baptism is a work? Never mind the work?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
There isn't one single verse in all of scripture that says baptism brings your faith alive.
strawman argument....I never said baptism brings your faith alive
Works accompany salvation.
no salvation is the Gift of God...
Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
They are living proof that the faith by which you are saved is a saving faith.
What part of ..We are saved by grace through faith do you not understand?... there is no mention of saving faith in the scripture..
A dead faith, that which does not produce works is a dead faith.
faith does not produce works...works are in obedience to God's words...
It saves no one.
It amazes me to see how ignorant some people are, yet they try to be teachers. The word dead in the verse simply means ineffective...not the opposite of alive. https://biblehub.com/lexicon/james/2-20.htm Which is different from dead in Matt 8:22 https://biblehub.com/lexicon/matthew/8-22.htm which means without life. Faith was never alive, to begin with.
Yes, baptism is a work which makes your faith alive(effective) not alive as in the opposite of dead, alive as in the opposite of ineffective...
I now realize that It is so wrong to assume that people would know those simple truths. Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected anyone to be understanding that faith was alive as in a person being alive...to the point that it produces works...
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings Newbirth,
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38 And he ordered that the chariot stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. NASB
follow Jesus teachings....anyone who asks that question does not know why he or she was baptized
I suggest that the Eunuch asked the correct question and Philip's response in baptising him is evidence that this is recorded for our example. We become identified with the salvation offered in Jesus'death and resurrection by an affectionate belief of the Kingdom and Name and baptism in water Acts 8:5-6,12. Also the thief on the cross is also an example of true belief as he looked towards the Kingdom when Jesus would return. The thief recognised that Jesus would rise from the dead and be appointed to establish the Kingdom at his return and that mercy and forgiveness would be centred in Jesus as a result of his death and resurrection. The thief was literally crucified with Christ and will live in the future Kingdom Galatians 2:20. The incident with the thief proves water baptism, refer also to Romans 6:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Greetings Newbirth,

I suggest that the Eunuch asked the correct question and Philip's response in baptising him is evidence that this is recorded for our example. We become identified with the salvation offered in Jesus'death and resurrection by an affectionate belief of the Kingdom and Name and baptism in water Acts 8:5-6,12.
It is not that you suggest...That is what is written in the scripture.
Also the thief on the cross is also an example of true belief as he looked towards the Kingdom when Jesus would return.
The thief on the cross has nothing to do with the resurrected Jesus. Jesus went to hell to preach the gospel to the dead. That is where the thief went and all believers who died before Jesus' resurrection.
The thief recognised that Jesus would rise from the dead and be appointed to establish the Kingdom at his return and that mercy and forgiveness would be centred in Jesus as a result of his death and resurrection.
It does not matter, the thief falls under OT law and would have the gospel preached to him in hell just as the other OT saints.
The thief was literally crucified with Christ and will live in the future Kingdom Galatians 2:20. The incident with the thief proves water baptism, refer also to Romans 6:1-8.
The thief was crucified next to Jesus if what you are saying is an argument for being saved then both thieves were saved since both were crucified with Jesus.
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again Newbirth,
It is not that you suggest...That is what is written in the scripture.
Perhaps I was a bit confused here, as I was responding to your earlier statement and on reflection I could have misunderstood what you were saying.

The thief on the cross has nothing to do with the resurrected Jesus. Jesus went to hell to preach the gospel to the dead. That is where the thief went and all believers who died before Jesus' resurrection.
It does not matter, the thief falls under OT law and would have the gospel preached to him in hell just as the other OT saints.
I believe that both Jesus and the thief were dead and not conscious on that day. Jesus rose from the grave, "hell" Acts 2:27, after three days. I re-punctuate the verse, moving the comma, and this then reads:
Luke 23:39–43 (KJV adjusted): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Jesus was answering the thief that he did not have to wait until the return of Jesus in order to know whether he would be remembered when Jesus came to establish his kingdom on earth, Paradise, the restored Garden of Eden. Jesus was answering the thief, now, this day, that the thief would have a place in Paradise with the Lord Jesus Christ.

The thief was crucified next to Jesus if what you are saying is an argument for being saved then both thieves were saved since both were crucified with Jesus.
One had understanding and faith in both the meaning of Christ’s crucifixion, death and resurrection, and the hope of the coming kingdom. He showed remorse, repentance and confession and a plea to be remembered when Jesus returned, revealing more faith than most of Jesus’ close disciples and apostles. The other thief was similar to the many that died at the hand of the Romans.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I believe that both Jesus and the thief were dead and not conscious on that day.
yes they both died and went to hell
Jesus rose from the grave, "hell" Acts 2:27, after three days.
Therefore he was in hell for three days as was the thief....
I re-punctuate the verse, moving the comma, and this then reads:
Luke 23:39–43 (KJV adjusted): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Jesus was answering the thief that he did not have to wait until the return of Jesus in order to know whether he would be remembered when Jesus came to establish his kingdom on earth, Paradise, the restored Garden of Eden. Jesus was answering the thief, now, this day, that the thief would have a place in Paradise with the Lord Jesus Christ.
You are not making any sense. Today would mean that very day Jesus went to paradise. You agree that Jesus went to hell and arose after three days, therefore you must conclude that paradise is in hell or else Jesus was lying. Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
One had understanding and faith in both the meaning of Christ’s crucifixion, death and resurrection, and the hope of the coming kingdom.
He had no understanding of anything , if he did he wouldn't be a criminal. At that point, he believed Jesus and took him at his word.
and tHe showed remorse, repentance and confession and a plea to be remembered when Jesus returned, revealing more faith than most of Jesus’ close disciples and apostles.
That is nonsense, you have no business comparing people who walked with Jesus and followed him with one who was facing death that didn't follow Jesus before.
The other thief was similar to the many that died at the hand of the Romans.
Come on you said one was literally crucified with Christ as if they were not both literally crucified with Christ. Now you are saying only one was similar to the many that died at the hands of the Romans as if they were not similar. Are you really serious about this discussion?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Really? What's your Tanakh source for this theory?
Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
It mattered enough that Jesus responded to him by telling him he would be in paradise that very day.

Luke 23:39-42 ESV

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Yep, and Jesus went to hell that day. What exactly is your point?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
That's a week argument for people in their graves hearing the gospel. If anything, it shows there is no need for Jesus.

Do you have anything else?
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again Newbirth,
Therefore he was in hell for three days as was the thief....
Yes, but the hell where Jesus and the thief went is the grave where there is no consciousness and the bodies start to decay. It is not speaking about immortal souls in hell.

You are not making any sense. Today would mean that very day Jesus went to paradise. You agree that Jesus went to hell and arose after three days, therefore you must conclude that paradise is in hell or else Jesus was lying. Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
The “today” is qualifying the answer, not where they would be that day. Jesus is saying that the thief would be remembered when he returns.

He had no understanding of anything , if he did he wouldn't be a criminal. At that point, he believed Jesus and took him at his word.
No, he had an understanding of who Jesus was, his spotless character, and that Jesus would return to establish the kingdom, and that he would raise the dead at that time. Please note what he said: “this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom”.

That is nonsense, you have no business comparing people who walked with Jesus and followed him with one who was facing death that didn't follow Jesus before.
Refer above.

Come on you said one was literally crucified with Christ as if they were not both literally crucified with Christ. Now you are saying only one was similar to the many that died at the hands of the Romans as if they were not similar. Are you really serious about this discussion?
The crucifixion of the thief with Jesus is similar in meaning and example to our baptism into the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ Galatians 2:20.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
That's a week argument for people in their graves hearing the gospel. If anything, it shows there is no need for Jesus.

Do you have anything else?
If they can cry out why can they not hear?
Gen 4:
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
 
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