Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

[JonHawk]

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, it is much more certain, that we are saved through Him in newness of life. Rom 5:10

In newness of life sir. This ishowit is done sir...

Oh, now all of a sudden it's done? Why would you keep insisting that you're still working it out?

Eph 4
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus... Eph 2

Stand fast in one spirit, with one mind contending together for the faith of the gospel, without any fear of your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. Philippians 1:27-28

He remembered His holy covenant, the oath He swore to our father Abraham:
to deliver us from the adversaries and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all our days. Lk 1:72-75

You are children of God and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4

 

[Newbirth]

Oh, now all of a sudden it's done?

now you are taking my words out of context... Learn to read and understand.

Why would you keep insisting that you're still working it out?

I am working it out...
Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus... Eph 2

That is referring to works of the law...There are works of faith since faith without works is dead.

Stand fast in one spirit, with one mind contending together for the faith of the gospel, without any fear of your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. Philippians 1:27-28

Paul is teaching how to work out your salvation

He remembered His holy covenant, the oath He swore to our father Abraham:
to deliver us from the adversaries and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all our days. Lk 1:72-75

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
hypocrites omit the parts where believers have to do anything...

You are children of God and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4

one does not overcome by wishful thinking. Do you not see they have overcome? The children of God are the ones doing the overcoming..

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, it is much more certain, that we are saved through Him in newness of life. Rom 5:10

Newbirth said:
In newness of life sir. This ishowit is done sir...

Oh, now all of a sudden it's done? Why would you keep insisting that you're still working it out?

now you are taking my words out of context... Learn to read and understand.

Your lack of understanding doesn't change the fact that law was fulfilled in Christ.
For Christ is the culmination of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus... Eph 2
Stand fast in one spirit, with one mind contending together for the faith of the gospel, without any fear of your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. Philippians 1:27-28

He remembered His holy covenant, the oath He swore to our father Abraham:
to deliver us from the adversaries and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all our days. Lk 1:72-75

You are children of God and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4

one does not overcome by wishful thinking. Do you not see they have overcome? The children of God are the ones doing the overcoming..

They overcame because they were born of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior has been born of God.

hypocrites omit the parts where believers have to do anything...

As previously addressed, they have to practice righteousness, everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

 

[Newbirth]

Your lack of understanding doesn't change the fact that law was fulfilled in Christ.
For Christ is the culmination of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

They overcame because they were born of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior has been born of God.

As previously addressed, they have to practice righteousness, everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Evidently, you do not understand what you posted... You just posted that believers must practice righteousness to be born of God. They overcame because they practice righteousness. You have been denying this from the onset. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[JonHawk]

They overcame because they practice righteousness. You have been denying this from the onset. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ...That He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:24-26

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit ...2 Cor 1:20-22

Evidently, you do not understand what you posted... You just posted that believers must practice righteousness to be born of God.

Evidently they must rely on God to be born of God.

So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:7-9

 

[Newbirth]

Justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ...That He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:24-26

You are using the scripture out of context. The one who has faith must have works to show his faith, that is why we have to work out our own salvation.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit ...2 Cor 1:20-22

This is not an excuse not to work out your own salvation JonHawk.

Evidently they must rely on God to be born of God.

Of course, they must rely on God to be born of God. They must also keep themselves from sin...
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:7-9

They still have to keep themselves from sin JonHawk...
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[JonHawk]

Of course, they must rely on God to be born of God. They must also keep themselves from sin...
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

They still have to keep themselves from sin JonHawk...
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And you know without a doubt that Jesus was revealed to eradicate sins, and there is no sin in Him.
The person who continues in the old sin nature has not seen Him or has not known Him.

You are using the scripture out of context. The one who has faith must have works to show his faith, that is why we have to work out our own salvation.

Through His faithfulness, you are shielded by God’s power so that you can receive the salvation He is ready to reveal 1 Peter 1:5

The life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1

 

[Manfred]

"Baptism... does NOT wash away one's sins!"... Oh, I think you forgot to quote 1 Peter there: "Baptism, which corresponds to this [salvation via the ark], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (1 Pet 3:21)

This argument is ridiculous.

Water did not save Noah and his children. The ark, which is a type for Christ saved Noah and his children.
What role did the water play?

Attributing the water of the flood to saving Noah is just wrong. I am sure Peter knew that. I am also sure that Peter knew the water rid the earth of all the unrighteous people that were on it, for a time.
So a better understanding of scripture is required here.

 

[Newbirth]

And you know without a doubt that Jesus was revealed to eradicate sins, and there is no sin in Him.
The person who continues in the old sin nature has not seen Him or has not known Him.

Yep like I said the person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling by not continuing in the old sin nature.

Through His faithfulness, you are shielded by God’s power so that you can receive the salvation He is ready to reveal 1 Peter 1:5

Yep God shields us who are in Christ and continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling by not continuing in the old sin nature.

The life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1

Yep, fellowship means all things in common...Jesus has no sin therefore those who have sin cannot have fellowship with him.

 

[Newbirth]

Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus. It does NOT wash away one's sins !

It does if one believes it does ...that is why it is called faith...
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

If one is saved & dies unbaptized, that one is still saved. Jesus gave us the example of the repentant thief on the cross. However, one SHOULD be baptized after salvation, if at all possible. I, & many others, were EAGER to be baptized ASAP after salvation.

That's an oxymoron. Salvation is the end of a process. If baptism is part of the process then one can't be saved without it. To bring up the thief on the cross is rubbish since he went to the place where the dead saints were imprisoned and awaiting deliverance from Jesus. Many of whom would not have been baptized in the name of Jesus. We don't know what Jesus preached to them...
1 Peter 4:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Salvation is not ended yet for those who are alive. We must all endure to the end.

So, one's mind should be at ease if one is saved, but unable to be baptized for awhile, if at all.

No, one's mind should not be at ease...Why should you teach contrary to the apostles who commanded baptism?

Sometimes, it's not possible for awhile if one is saved in wintertime & one's church has no indoor natatorium.

Lol it is not possible to be baptized but they can have a bath?

Others may be in a landwhere there's no suitable place for baptism, or there's no one available to do it.

At the first sign of water, as the eunuch, and the one who preached to them would be qualified.

Others may have a physical condition making it impossible for them to be immersed in water.

Impossible you say? What about the man at the pool who waited years for healing even when there was no one to put him in the pool when the time came?

But GOD knows whether baptism is possible or not.

I believe God made it necessary.

But don't worry if you have a terminal illness, are saved, but are unable to be baptized for awhile.

Bro that would be a good time to start worrying. You are assuming that people remain always saved after hearing and believing but doing nothing.

You're JUST-AS-SAVED if you die first.

Then Ananias and his wife are saved.

It's JESUS who does the saving, not the water or he who baptizes one.

Yes, Jesus saves those who obey him.

 

[JonHawk]

And you know without a doubt that Jesus was revealed to eradicate sins, and there is no sin in Him.
The person who continues in the old sin nature has not seen Him or has not known Him.

Through His faithfulness, you are shielded by God’s power so that you can receive the salvation He is ready to reveal 1 Peter 1:5

The life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1

Yep like I said the person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling by not continuing in the old sin nature.

Yep God shields us who are in Christ and continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling by not continuing in the old sin nature.

Yep, fellowship means all things in common...Jesus has no sin therefore those who have sin cannot have fellowship with him.

All things in common, refers to partaking in Christ's unblemished sacrifice on the cross in order to have fellowship with Him in newness of life.

God’s Children
7 A new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you;
20 You have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
25 And this is what He promised us—eternal life.
29 You know that He is righteous, and you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of Him. 1 John 2

What fellowship can light have with darkness?
But if you claim to have fellowship with Him and walk in the darkness, the truth is not in you. 1 John 1:2-6

 

[robycop3]

It does if one believes it does ...that is why it is called faith...
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

That's an oxymoron. Salvation is the end of a process. If baptism is part of the process then one can't be saved without it. To bring up the thief on the cross is rubbish since he went to the place where the dead saints were imprisoned and awaiting deliverance from Jesus. Many of whom would not have been baptized in the name of Jesus. We don't know what Jesus preached to them...
1 Peter 4:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Salvation is not ended yet for those who are alive. We must all endure to the end.


No, one's mind should not be at ease...Why should you teach contrary to the apostles who commanded baptism?

Lol it is not possible to be baptized but they can have a bath?

At the first sign of water, as the eunuch, and the one who preached to them would be qualified.

Impossible you say? What about the man at the pool who waited years for healing even when there was no one to put him in the pool when the time came?

I believe God made it necessary.

Bro that would be a good time to start worrying. You are assuming that people remain always saved after hearing and believing but doing nothing.

Then Ananias and his wife are saved.

Yes, Jesus saves those who obey him.

Oh, pshaw! One's faith should be on JESUS, the Only one who can forgive our sins & save us from the penalty for sinning. NO act of man's such as baptism, can save someone. If one isn't already saved, baptism only results in a wet unforgiven sinner.
JESUS went to the paradise area of hades Himself, as did the thief on the cross He saved. Difference is, Jesus left it while the thief is still there til Jesus calls all saints to Himself. (Remember, hades is divided into torments' & & paradise.)

I'm an indy fundy Baptist, so I'm certainly not against baptism. When I was saved, I was eager to be baptized, but it was wintertime & I had to wait over 4 months. But I was SAVED, & had I died first, I would've gone to paradise.

Yes, every newly-saved person should be baptized ASAP, and I believe everyone who's truly saved eagerly desires to be baptized, but immediate baptism isn't always possible. (Our church has no indoor natatorium, and to baptize in the nearby creek in adverse weather would be to DARE GOD, something we're twice specifically commanded not to do.

 

[JonHawk]

robycop3 said:
Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus. It does NOT wash away one's sins !

It does if one believes it does ...that is why it is called faith...

...To bring up the thief on the cross is rubbish since he went to the place where the dead saints were imprisoned and awaiting deliverance from Jesus.

Salvation is not ended yet for those who are alive. We must all endure to the end.

Oh, pshaw! One's faith should be on JESUS, the Only one who can forgive our sins & save us from the penalty for sinning.

If judgment begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
For “If the righteous is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
So therefore, according to God's will, they ought to do good and entrust their soul to a faithful creator. 1 Peter 4:17-19

JESUS went to the paradise area of hades Himself, as did the thief on the cross He saved. (Remember, hades is divided into torments' & & paradise.)

Sheol, Abraham’s bosom, refers to the place of comfort where the righteous dead await deliverance.
Hades, is the place the unrighteous are found wanting the water of life; "Beyond all this, between us who believe in Christ and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."

For the Lord knows how to deliver the justified, the godly and to reserve the unjust, the ungodly under punishment for the day of judgment;
specifically those who walk uncleansed, according to the flesh; They are presumptuous, self-willed; 2 Peter 2:9-10

“Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

Difference is, Jesus left it, while the thief is still there til Jesus calls all saints to Himself.

To those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we will not be condemned in the end with the world. 1 Cor 11:32

 

[robycop3]

If judgment begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
For “If the righteous is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
So therefore, according to God's will, they ought to do good and entrust their soul to a faithful creator. 1 Peter 4:17-19

Sheol, Abraham’s bosom, refers to the place of comfort where the righteous dead await deliverance.
Hades, is the place the unrighteous are found wanting the water of life; "Beyond all this, between us who believe in Christ and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."

For the Lord knows how to deliver the justified, the godly and to reserve the unjust, the ungodly under punishment for the day of judgment;
specifically those who walk uncleansed, according to the flesh; They are presumptuous, self-willed; 2 Peter 2:9-10

“Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

To those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we will not be condemned in the end with the world. 1 Cor 11:32

Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

[CrowCross]

Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

I believe the 'paradise' portion is closed. Once the blood of Christ washed away their sins and they received Christ righteousness they went to heaven.

 

[JonHawk]

If judgment begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? For “If the righteous is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear? So therefore, according to God's will, they ought to do good and entrust their soul to a faithful creator. 1 Peter 4:17-19
Sheol, Abraham’s bosom, refers to the place of comfort where the righteous dead await deliverance.
Hades, is the place the unrighteous are found wanting the water of life; "Beyond all this, between us who believe in Christ and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."
For the Lord knows how to deliver the justified, the godly and to reserve the unjust, the ungodly under punishment for the day of judgment;
specifically those who walk uncleansed, according to the flesh; They are presumptuous, self-willed; 2 Peter 2:9-10
“Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we will not be condemned in the end with the world. 1 Cor 11:32

Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of His power; These are springs without water, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Scripture is clear that hades was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, Rev 20:14
which is the place prepared for the devil and his cohorts, where the beast and the false prophet were thrown.

Bear in mind that the thief called upon the name of the Lord before arriving at his destination.
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power;

 

[robycop3]

Those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of His power; These are springs without water, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Scripture is clear that hades was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, Rev 20:14
which is the place prepared for the devil and his cohorts, where the beast and the false prophet were thrown.

Bear in mind that the thief called upon the name of the Lord before arriving at his destination.
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power;

No, hades has NOT yet been cast into hell, nor have the beast & false prophet, as they haven't yet come.

 

[robycop3]

I believe the 'paradise' portion is closed. Once the blood of Christ washed away their sins and they received Christ righteousness they went to heaven.

No Scriptural indication of such.

 

[CrowCross]

No Scriptural indication of such.

Are you saying OT saints went to heaven, bosom of Abraham (paradise)???

 

[robycop3]

The "bosom of Abraham" is paradise. That's proven from Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus; Lazarus went to Abe's bosom, and the thief on the cross whom Jesus saved went to paradise. Would you think that if that Lazarus had been real, that his soul woulda gone to a different place than that of the thief, who WAS real?