Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

[CrowCross]

The "bosom of Abraham" is paradise. That's proven from Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus; Lazarus went to Abe's bosom, and the thief on the cross whom Jesus saved went to paradise. Would you think that if that Lazarus had been real, that his soul woulda gone to a different place than that of the thief, who WAS real?

No, they both would have went to the same place...with all of the other saints.

I believe paradise was a compartment in hell

 

[robycop3]

No, they both would have went to the same place...with all of the other saints.

I believe paradise was a compartment in hell

Hell is the lake of fire. Hades is not hell.

 

[CrowCross]

Hell is the lake of fire. Hades is not hell.

This is where it gets complicated.

 

[JonHawk]

Those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of His power; These are springs without water, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Scripture is clear that hades was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, Rev 20:14
which is the place prepared for the devil and his cohorts, where the beast and the false prophet were thrown.
Bear in mind that the thief called upon the name of the Lord before arriving at his destination.
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power;
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we will not be condemned in the end with the world. 1 Cor 11:32

No, hades has NOT yet been cast into hell, nor have the beast & false prophet, as they haven't yet come.

That still doesn't hold water, since death and Hades (the realm of the dead) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged and sentenced, according to their deeds and thrown into the lake of fire, whereas the thief was united to Christ in Paradise as He promised.

The apostle John, who said they were in the world already, would adamantly disagree with you.
Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1 John 4:1

 

[JonHawk]

If judgment begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
For “If the righteous is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
So therefore, according to God's will, they ought to do good and entrust their soul to a faithful creator. 1 Peter 4:17-19

Abraham’s bosom, refers to the place of comfort where the righteous dead await deliverance.
Hades, is the place the unrighteous are found wanting the water of life; "Beyond all this, between us who believe in Christ and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."

For the Lord knows how to deliver the justified, the godly and to reserve the unjust, the ungodly under punishment for the day of judgment;
specifically those who walk uncleansed, according to the flesh; They are presumptuous, self-willed; 2 Peter 2:9-10

“Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we will not be condemned in the end with the world. 1 Cor 11:32

Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13

Listen to Me, you who pursue righteousness (right standing with God), Who seek the Lord: Look to the rock from which you were cut And to the the quarry from which you were dug. Isaiah 51:1

 

[robycop3]

That still doesn't hold water, since death and Hades (the realm of the dead) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged and sentenced, according to their deeds and thrown into the lake of fire, whereas the thief was united to Christ in Paradise as He promised.

The apostle John, who said they were in the world already, would adamantly disagree with you.
Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1 John 4:1

There have been antichrists since Christ was here, and false prophets since there have been people. But Scripture is speaking of ONE particular antichrist & ONE false prophet who will be the most-evil in history, and Scripture says they'll be here when Jesus returns. He will cast them both alive into hell.

And hades is still in existence, and all the souls of the dead are still in it.

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
That still doesn't hold water, since death and Hades (the realm of the dead) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged and sentenced, according to their deeds and thrown into the lake of fire, whereas the thief was united to Christ in Paradise as He promised.

The apostle John, who said they were in the world already, would adamantly disagree with you.
Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1 John 4:1

There have been antichrists since Christ was here, and false prophets since there have been people. But Scripture is speaking of ONE particular antichrist & ONE false prophet who will be the most-evil in history,

Six of one half dozen of the other, they're all destined for perdition.

and Scripture says they'll be here when Jesus returns.

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God,...
But you who believe are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 2 Peter 2

 

[robycop3]

Six of one half dozen of the other, they're all destined for perdition.

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God,...
But you who believe are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 2 Peter 2

You just don't like the Scriptures that show you wrong.

That still doesn't hold water, since death and Hades (the realm of the dead) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged and sentenced, according to their deeds and thrown into the lake of fire, whereas the thief was united to Christ in Paradise as He promised.

No, they HAVEN'T. That doesn't happen til the millenium ends. Read Rev. 20:11-15.

The apostle John, who said they were in the world already, would adamantly disagree with you.
Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1 John 4:1

And one or more evil spirits has fed you a line of hooey. Read Rev. 19.

 

[JonHawk]

You just don't like the Scriptures that show you wrong.

Do you mean the one you quoted about waiting until you end up in hades to make a decision?

Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

No, they HAVEN'T. That doesn't happen til the millenium ends. Read Rev. 20:11-15.

Christ our high priest entered the most Holy place with His own blood,
But now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Heb 9

And one or more evil spirits has fed you a line of hooey. Read Rev. 19.

This is how we know that we live in Him and He in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30

 

[robycop3]

Do you mean the one you quoted about waiting until you end up in hades to make a decision?


Christ our high priest entered the most Holy place with His own blood,
But now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Heb 9

This is how we know that we live in Him and He in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30

Sir, you've gotten entirely away from the theme of this thread-baptism. I've posted some Scriptures about hades, etc. & that's all I'm gonna do. You may choose to believe God's word (which I hope you do) or some preterist's line of trash.

 

[JonHawk]

Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

JonHawk said:
Do you mean the one you quoted about waiting until you end up in hades to make a decision?

Sir, you've gotten entirely away from the theme of this thread-baptism.

How's that regeneration in baptism working out with your consummation in hades doctrine of demon?

I've posted some Scriptures about hades, etc. & that's all I'm gonna do. You may choose to believe God's word (which I hope you do) or some preterist's line of trash.

Timothy, my fellow believer, according to the prophecies that were previously given to you, remain firm in the faith with a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck and are headed straight to hades.

 

[Newbirth]

Oh, pshaw! One's faith should be on JESUS, the Only one who can forgive our sins & save us from the penalty for sinning. NO act of man's such as baptism, can save someone. If one isn't already saved, baptism only results in a wet unforgiven sinner.

How is baptism a man's act when God commands it? Even had to be baptized to receive the fulness of Holy Spirit

JESUS went to the paradise area of hades Himself, as did the thief on the cross He saved. Difference is, Jesus left it while the thief is still there til Jesus calls all saints to Himself. (Remember, hades is divided into torments' & & paradise.)

If paradise is still a prison for dead saints then Jesus does not have the key to open it neither did he set the captives free...
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I'm an indy fundy Baptist, so I'm certainly not against baptism. When I was saved, I was eager to be baptized, but it was wintertime & I had to wait over 4 months. But I was SAVED, & had I died first, I would've gone to paradise.

there is no OSAS, men must maintain their position in Christ.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I don't live where it snows but I am sure people take baths in the winter.

Yes, every newly-saved person should be baptized ASAP, and I believe everyone who's truly saved eagerly desires to be baptized, but immediate baptism isn't always possible.

If one is saved without baptism what is the point of being baptized? Jesus likened baptism as righteousness...
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

(Our church has no indoor natatorium, and to baptize in the nearby creek in adverse weather would be to DARE GOD, something we're twice specifically commanded not to do.

So what is the point of being baptized if you are already saved?

 

[JonHawk]

robycop3 said:
Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

JonHawk said:
Do you mean the one you quoted about waiting until you end up in hades to make a decision?

robycop3 said:
Sir, you've gotten entirely away from the theme of this thread-baptism.

How's that regeneration in baptism working out with your consummation in hades doctrine of demon?

robycop3 said:
I've posted some Scriptures about hades, etc. & that's all I'm gonna do. You may choose to believe God's word (which I hope you do) or some preterist's line of trash.

Timothy, my fellow believer, according to the prophecies that were previously given to you, remain firm in the faith with a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck and are headed straight to hades.

there is no OSAS, men must maintain their position in Christ.

Spiritual Fullness in Christ
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been established in the faith, overflowing with gratitude. Col 2:6-7
Walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. Eph 5:2

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This one is on you robocob.

To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life.

 

[Newbirth]

Spiritual Fullness in Christ
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been established in the faith, overflowing with gratitude. Col 2:6-7
Walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. Eph 5:2

This does not mean OSAS...Col2:6-7 means you have to continue obeying Jesus and show gratitude.
Eph 5:2 Walk in love as Jesus did. Those are things the individual must do to maintain thair position in Christ.

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
The Sin-Bearing Messiah— Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? Isaiah 53:1
The Discerner of Hearts— Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name; John 2:23
For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Feast with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Cor 5:7-8
Now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God...
As it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes in Him... ” 1 Peter 2 Shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

rossh said:
HIS REAL Name is Yeshua not " Jesus " there is NO " J " in the Jewish/Hebrew alphabet, seriously ?

" Boasting on your religion isn't going to help. " seriously, this proves what in your little brain ? and yes you do seem to need all the HELP you can get... so get some!!

Where have I heard that lil' song? Oh, yeah,
'It's plain to see, your brain is very small,
but I'm still knocking down that wall!'

Through the gospel the Gentiles are partakers together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 1:24-25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than all you religious drunks combined, who don't know the way of peace.

As though the drunkard could be included with the sober.

So that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober; Deut 29:18-20

This one is on you Newbirth

Work it out it so that you are sober-minded at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph 5:2 Walk in love as Jesus did. Those are things the individual must do to maintain thair position in Christ.

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth,
whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." John 14

 

[robycop3]

JonHawk said:
Do you mean the one you quoted about waiting until you end up in hades to make a decision?

Once there, no decision can be made

How's that regeneration in baptism working out with your consummation in hades doctrine of demon?

I don't know what you're talking about I never said no one can be saved in hades.

Timothy, my fellow believer, according to the prophecies that were previously given to you, remain firm in the faith with a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck and are headed straight to hades.

 

[robycop3]

How is baptism a man's act when God commands it? Even had to be baptized to receive the fulness of Holy Spirit

Man still has to do it. God doesn't do it for anyone.

If paradise is still a prison for dead saints then Jesus does not have the key to open it neither did he set the captives free...
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Nowhere does Scripture say Jesus has already emptied paradise. And it's not a "prison".

there is no OSAS, men must maintain their position in Christ.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Not arguing for or against OSAS; I can speak for no one but myself. I know I have no desire to stop loving & obeying Jesus.

I don't live where it snows but I am sure people take baths in the winter.

Likely not outside.

If one is saved without baptism what is the point of being baptized? Jesus likened baptism as righteousness...
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So what is the point of being baptized if you are already saved?

The point is, He commanded it after salvation. It's a public expression of one's salvation, symbolic of one's sins being removed. An unsaved person being baptized only produces a wet sinner. And I'll keep repeating the example of the repentant thief on the cross whom Jesus saved, although he couldn't possibly be baptized.

 

[JonHawk]

robycop3 said:
Sir, you've gotten entirely away from the theme of this thread-baptism.

How's that regeneration in baptism working out with your consummation in hades doctrine of demon?

robycop3 said:
I've posted some Scriptures about hades, etc. & that's all I'm gonna do. You may choose to believe God's word (which I hope you do) or some preterist's line of trash.

Timothy, my fellow believer, according to the prophecies that were previously given to you, remain firm in the faith with a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck and are headed straight to hades.

Newbirth said:
there is no OSAS, men must maintain their position in Christ.

Spiritual Fullness in Christ
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been established in the faith, overflowing with gratitude. Col 2:6-7
Walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. Eph 5:2

Newbirth said:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This one is on you robocob.

To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life.

This does not mean OSAS...

Well then hop on the hades train with robocop, enjoy the 'gourmet meal' and listen to some i-Tunes.

'I hear the train a comin'
It's rolling round the bend
And I ain't seen the sunshine
since I don't know when
I'm stuck in [hades] prison
I know I can't be free
But those people keep a movin'
And that's what tortures me
~JC

 

[robycop3]

How's that regeneration in baptism working out with your consummation in hades doctrine of demon?

Timothy, my fellow believer, according to the prophecies that were previously given to you, remain firm in the faith with a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck and are headed straight to hades.

Spiritual Fullness in Christ
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been established in the faith, overflowing with gratitude. Col 2:6-7
Walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. Eph 5:2

This one is on you robocob.

To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life.

Well then hop on the hades train with robocop, enjoy the 'gourmet meal' and listen to some i-Tunes.

'I hear the train a comin'
It's rolling round the bend
And I ain't seen the sunshine
since I don't know when
I'm stuck in [hades] prison
I know I can't be free
But those people keep a movin'
And that's what tortures me
~JC

I think you're so off-kilter that I might terminate conversations with you. Firse, I never said ANYTHING about being saved in hades. Second, you'gotten entirely off the "baptism" subject of this thread & gone down some silly bunny trail.

 

[JonHawk]

robycop3 said:
Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

robycop3 said:
JESUS went to the paradise area of hades Himself, as did the thief on the cross He saved.

Once there, no decision can be made

I never said no one can be saved in hades.

I think you're so off-kilter that I might terminate conversations with you. Firse, I never said ANYTHING about being saved in hades. Second, you'gotten entirely off the "baptism" subject of this thread & gone down some silly bunny trail.

Well, what you did say was, hades has a torment chamber and a consolation chamber and
you also said, that you're DOA and have no choice in the matter.

So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?
And the next question is,
How do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

Who can live and not see death, or who can escape the power of the grave.
Where Lord, are the sure mercies you have sworn to David? Psalm 89:47-49

For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness; Isaiah 38:18