Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

[JonHawk]

robycop3 said:
Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

robycop3 said:
JESUS went to the paradise area of hades Himself, as did the thief on the cross He saved.

robycop3 said:
Once there, no decision can be made

I never said no one can be saved in hades.

robycop3 said:
I think you're so off-kilter that I might terminate conversations with you. Firse, I never said ANYTHING about being saved in hades. Second, you'gotten entirely off the "baptism" subject of this thread & gone down some silly bunny trail.

Well, what you did say was, hades has a torment chamber and a consolation chamber and
you also said, that you're DOA and have no choice in the matter.

So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?
And the next question is,
How do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

Who can live and not see death, or who can escape the power of the grave.
Where Lord, are the sure mercies you have sworn to David? Psalm 89:47-49

For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness;
The living, the living—they praise you, as I am doing today; they will tell about your faithfulness. Isaiah 38:18-19

 

[robycop3]

robycop3 said:
Actually, the whole place is hades. It's divided into 'torments' & 'paradise', as Scripture indicates.
Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

robycop3 said:
JESUS went to the paradise area of hades Himself, as did the thief on the cross He saved.


Well, what you did say was, hades has a torment chamber and a consolation chamber and
you also said, that you're DOA and have no choice in the matter.

So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?
And the next question is,
How do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

Who can live and not see death, or who can escape the power of the grave.
Where Lord, are the sure mercies you have sworn to David? Psalm 89:47-49

For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness; Isaiah 38:18

I'm through with you.

 

[JonHawk]

Well, what you did say was, hades has a torment chamber and a consolation chamber and
you also said, that you're DOA and have no choice in the matter.
So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?
And the next question is, how do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

Who can live and not see death, or who can escape the power of the grave. Where Lord, are the sure mercies you have sworn to David? Psalm 89:47-49
For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness;
The living, the living—they praise you, as I am doing today; they will tell about your faithfulness. Isaiah 38:18-19

I'm through with you.

If they were of us, they would have remained with us;

Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance of faith. Hebrews 10

 

[Newbirth]

Man still has to do it. God doesn't do it for anyone.

He commands it through the apostles...Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Nowhere does Scripture say Jesus has already emptied paradise. And it's not a "prison".

Nowhere did I say Jesus emptied anything...The scripture said he set the captives free...If it is not from prison then what is it?

Not arguing for or against OSAS; I can speak for no one but myself. I know I have no desire to stop loving & obeying Jesus.

seems like only when it suits you...

Likely not outside.

Likely your assembly was unprepared.

The point is, He commanded it after salvation.

Where? Back that statement with scripture.

It's a public expression of one's salvation, symbolic of one's sins being removed.

Where does the scripture say that robo? You seem to be making up things...
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Consider this passage...Jesus Spoke to Paul gave him a mission which he accepted he was a believer yet he still had sins.

An unsaved person being baptized only produces a wet sinner.

You are not making any sense...if one is already saved what is the point of being baptized. Jesus never taught his disciples to be baptized to express anything...Jesus calls sinners to repentance...
Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You seem to be saying these people were saved before they were baptized.

And I'll keep repeating the example of the repentant thief on the cross whom Jesus saved, although he couldn't possibly be baptized.

Repeating your foolishness does not make it true...Jesus went to hell, if the thief was saved then he wouldn't have gone to hell. If Jesus did not release the captives from that compartment of hell then we would all be going there.

 

[Newbirth]

I'm through with you.

You presented yourself as an authority on the matter so, don't run... answer the questions.
So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?
How do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
The Sin-Bearing Messiah— Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? Isaiah 53:1
The Discerner of Hearts— Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name; John 2:23
For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Feast with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Cor 5:7-8
Now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God...
As it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes in Him... ” 1 Peter 2 Shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

rossh said:
HIS REAL Name is Yeshua not " Jesus " there is NO " J " in the Jewish/Hebrew alphabet, seriously ?

" Boasting on your religion isn't going to help. " seriously, this proves what in your little brain ? and yes you do seem to need all the HELP you can get... so get some!!

JonHawk said:
Where have I heard that lil' song? Oh, yeah,
'It's plain to see, your brain is very small,
but I'm still knocking down that wall!'

Through the gospel the Gentiles are partakers together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 1:24-25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than all you religious drunks combined, who don't know the way of peace.

As though the drunkard could be included with the sober.

So that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober; Deut 29:18-20

robycop3 said:
I'm through with you.

You presented yourself as an authority on the matter so, don't run... answer the questions.
So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?
How do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2

 

[robycop3]

He commands it through the apostles...Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But people still hafta do it. No one does it for anyone else.

Nowhere did I say Jesus emptied anything...The scripture said he set the captives free...If it is not from prison then what is it?

He frees us from the "prison" of sin.

seems like only when it suits you...

It suits me all the time.

Likely your assembly was unprepared.

If you want to bathe in public, don't let me stop you.

Where? Back that statement with scripture.

For one, Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Where does the scripture say that robo? You seem to be making up things...
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Consider this passage...Jesus Spoke to Paul gave him a mission which he accepted he was a believer yet he still had sins.

I just cited an example above.

You are not making any sense...if one is already saved what is the point of being baptized. Jesus never taught his disciples to be baptized to express anything...Jesus calls sinners to repentance...
Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You seem to be saying these people were saved before they were baptized.

Because Jesus commands to be baptized.

Repeating your foolishness does not make it true...Jesus went to hell, if the thief was saved then he wouldn't have gone to hell. If Jesus did not release the captives from that compartment of hell then we would all be going there.

Not foolishness, but plain Scripture, which you seem to deny.
Hades is not hell. The lake of fire is hell. Some call hades 'hell' because of a mistranslation in the KJV. That's some of why I don't use the KJV.

 

[robycop3]

You presented yourself as an authority on the matter so, don't run... answer the questions.
So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?
How do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

All silliness. Everyone dies, and while there'll be exceptions, such as those who will be raptured & the beast and false prophet who'll be cast alive into hell, most will die, and their "fate" will be sealed. If saved, they'll go to paradise, later heaven, and if not saved, they'll go to 'torments', later to hell.

 

[robycop3]

Did Jesus or any apostle say, "Be baptized, then believe"?

 

[JonHawk]

Did Jesus or any apostle say, "Be baptized, then believe"?

Also, keep in mind that if you claim to have believed in Christ as Savior and then perform the water ritual to openly demonstrate your fellowship with the eternal Son, but then beeline straight to death and hades, the truth is not in you.

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as Prince and Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5

All silliness.

For the message of salvation through the cross of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18

 

[Newbirth]

JonHawk said:
The Sin-Bearing Messiah— Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? Isaiah 53:1
The Discerner of Hearts— Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name; John 2:23
For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Feast with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Cor 5:7-8
Now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God...
As it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes in Him... ” 1 Peter 2 Shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

JonHawk said:
Where have I heard that lil' song? Oh, yeah,
'It's plain to see, your brain is very small,
but I'm still knocking down that wall!'

Through the gospel the Gentiles are partakers together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 1:24-25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than all you religious drunks combined, who don't know the way of peace.

As though the drunkard could be included with the sober.

So that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober; Deut 29:18-20



Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

 

[Newbirth]

But people still hafta do it. No one does it for anyone else.

as they hafta do all God's commands, what is your point?

He frees us from the "prison" of sin.

sin is not a prison.

It suits me all the time.

Nope, you got baptized when it suited you. and you are encouraging others to do the same.

If you want to bathe in public, don't let me stop you.

You are the one who teaches baptism for public recognition

For one, Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

That does not say they were baptized after salvation... Salvation is an ongoing process that begins with baptism...they were baptized because they believed they must be baptized.

I just cited an example above.

That is not an example of anything you are claiming. Believers get baptized because they believe it is a command from the Lord. You believe it is for show. I posted the scripture showing Paul after he believed and was commissioned by the Lord still had sins that needed to be washed away by baptism.

Because Jesus commands to be baptized.

Yes, Jesus commanded baptism but not for a show as you are claiming.

Not foolishness, but plain Scripture, which you seem to deny.
Hades is not hell. The lake of fire is hell. Some call hades 'hell' because of a mistranslation in the KJV. That's some of why I don't use the KJV.

So now you are saying that Jesus did not go to hell. Is it your belief that paradise is in heaven? If not please explain where paradise is... That is not a good reason to not use the KJV...because by the same token you should stop using your brain when you make an error

 

[Newbirth]

All silliness. Everyone dies, and while there'll be exceptions, such as those who will be raptured & the beast and false prophet who'll be cast alive into hell, most will die, and their "fate" will be sealed. If saved, they'll go to paradise, later heaven, and if not saved, they'll go to 'torments', later to hell.

Your answer is silliness, you did not answer any of the questions.
So that begs the question, why would you be headed to death in hades if you were regenerated at baptism?

How do you know what side you end up in, if you're dead on arrival, "once there, no decision can be made" ?

 

[Newbirth]

Did Jesus or any apostle say, "Be baptized, then believe"?

That is a strawman, no one has made that claim...Those who believe in Jesus continue to obey his words...
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[JonHawk]

Eph 3:6 Through the gospel the Gentiles are partakers together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 1 Cor 1:24-25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than all you religious drunks combined, who don't know the way of peace.

As though the drunkard could be included with the sober.
So that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober; Deut 29:18-20

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

God accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. You know the word God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. Acts 10:34-44

For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Eph 2

 

[Saxon]

Twice I have heard this: That power belongs to God. Psalm 62:10-12

Do you mean the repentant thief who was baptized unto His death and was assured that he would be raised to life "with Me in Paradise"?

Explain "who was baptized unto His death" and who's "death" was he baptized unto? (book, chapter and verse) as you like to quote scripture.

 

[JonHawk]

Explain "who was baptized unto His death" and who's "death" was he baptized unto? (book, chapter and verse) as you like to quote scripture.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6

 

[Saxon]

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6

Baptized into Christ, not water.

 

[JonHawk]

Baptized into Christ, not water.

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Col 3

 

[Saxon]

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Col 3

You may be quoting scripture but it doesn't help me to understand you. Make a statement in your own words so I can understand your thoughts.