Baptism is a rite, not salvation !

[JonHawk]

You may be quoting scripture but it doesn't help me to understand you. Make a statement in your own words so I can understand your thoughts.

Scripture is clear, For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day; 1 Cor 15

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1

 

[Rejoran]

I hope everyone interested in baptism knows enouth Scripture to see my view is Scriptural.

There would have to be scripture for your view
Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus.

to be "scriptural".

There would have to be scripture for
Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus.

for people to know enough scripture, and also to remember.

As it is

baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus.

is unknown to the pages of the Bible. Entirely a "church" driven teaching, as this is the only place this teaching exists.

Thistle is right, you've completely dispatched the topic without citing a single passage of scripture containing the word baptism or not. And you didn't refer to scripture for the only possible reason that there is no scripture to refer to. It's a complete hoax.

 

[JonHawk]

Whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

There would have to be scripture for your view
Remember, baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus.

to be "scriptural".

Therefore, having put off falsehood, speak truth every one with his neighbor, because we are members one of another. Eph 4:17-25

As you come to him, the Living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, 1 Peter 2

 

[Rejoran]

Whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Therefore, having put off falsehood, speak truth every one with his neighbor, because we are members one of another. Eph 4:17-25
As you come to him, the Living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, 1 Peter 2

Is the word baptism hidden between the lines somewhere?
baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus.

is entirely a "church" driven teaching, as this is the only place this teaching exists. It is a hoax.

 

[JonHawk]

Therefore, having put off falsehood, speak truth every one with his neighbor, because we are members one of another. Eph 4:17-25
As you come to him, the Living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, 1 Peter 2

Is the word baptism hidden between the lines somewhere?

Certainly not. We who have died to the sin nature; how can we rely on it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Rom 6:2

baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus.

But rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; as an instrument of righteousness. Rom 6:13

 

[CrowCross]

Is the word baptism hidden between the lines somewhere?
baptism is the public expression of one's committment to Jesus.

is entirely a "church" driven teaching, as this is the only place this teaching exists. It is a hoax.

Then just what is baptism?

 

[Newbirth]

Then just what is baptism?

It is the second command in preaching...It goes like this...repent and be baptized for the remission of sins...
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Thistle]

It is the second command in preaching...It goes like this...repent and be baptized for the remission of sins...
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

That is absolutely correct. Baptism belongs to a special class of commands which are not "works" in the Pauline sense of the word, as we read in Ephesians 2:8 and 9 and elsewhere. These are gospel commands and they have to do directly with obedience unto salvation. Where they are mentioned they create a clear dividing line between the saved and the lost. The saved have been obedient to these commands and the lost have not.

"The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith." - Acts 6:7 NASB95​

"However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"" - Romans 10:16 NASB95​

"dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus." - 2 Thessalonians 1:8 NASB95​

"For [it is] time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if [it] [begins] with us first, what [will be] the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?" - 1 Peter 4:17 NASB95​

​

 

[JonHawk]

It is the second command in preaching...It goes like this...repent and be baptized for the remission of sins...

The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He sent.

That is absolutely correct... These are gospel commands and they have to do directly with obedience unto salvation. Where they are mentioned they create a clear dividing line between the saved and the lost. The saved have been obedient to these commands and the lost have not.

So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Baptizing them in the name of the Father
God commands all men to repent; Acts 17:30-32
and of the Son
"Then their sins will be forgiven, and by faith in Me they will become part of God’s holy people." Acts 26:18
and of the Holy Spirit
We are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:31-32

Receiving the Spirit upon is not associated in scripture with being saved.

Sonship Through the Spirit
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom 8

 

[Fred]

That is absolutely correct. Baptism belongs to a special class of commands which are not "works" in the Pauline sense of the word, as we read in Ephesians 2:8 and 9 and elsewhere. These are gospel commands and they have to do directly with obedience unto salvation. Where they are mentioned they create a clear dividing line between the saved and the lost. The saved have been obedient to these commands and the lost have not.

"The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith." - Acts 6:7 NASB95​

God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32). Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were given the Holy Spirit before their water baptism (Acts 11:17; 15:8). Therefore, they already experienced salvation before their water baptism.

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): The equality among Christians, which transcends all national and religious frontiers, with regard to their participation in salvation is experienced as a supernatural act, through one and the same experience of the Spirit, which removes all barriers between Jewish Christians and Gentiles (Acts 11:17) (2:499, Like, Beyreuther, the underlined is mine).

 

[Thistle]

So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Baptizing them in the name of the Father
God commands all men to repent; Acts 17:30-32
and of the Son
"Then their sins will be forgiven, and by faith in Me they will become part of God’s holy people." Acts 26:18
and of the Holy Spirit
We are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:31-32

I have no quarrel with any of the foregoing. I would add that we are saved "in baptism" as we reading Colossians 2:12.

"having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."​

- Colossians 2:12 NASB95​

 

[Fred]

"having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."​

​

- Colossians 2:12 NASB95​

Colossians 2:12 refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit - this is when one enters the NT church. All who have undergone this baptism have at the same time experienced the “circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11). The “true circumcision” (i.e., Christians) “worship in the Spirit” (Philippians 3:3). Since the Gentiles possessed the Holy Spirit and were worshipping in the Spirit (Acts 10:46) means they were the “true circumcision”/Christians before their water baptism.

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): When later in Caesarea the first pagans received the Holy Spirit and became members of the church, they also shared in the grace of worshipping and praising God "in other tongues", as again later the disciples of John the Baptist who became believers in Ephesus (Acts 10:46; 19:6) (3:1080, Word, H. Haarbeck).

 

[Thistle]

God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32).

Hallelujah! Acts 5:32 needs to be read in the context, as we meet it in the text, of having read Acts 2:38 thru 41.

Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were given the Holy Spirit before their water baptism (Acts 11:17; 15:8).

Fred, I'm not sure if you've read my earlier posts. But I draw a distinction between three unique events which I call "baptism of the Holy Spirit" including Jesus baptism at the hands of John the Baptist, Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4 and this event in Acts 10:45. These are redemptive miracles of the Holy Spirit, but they are not occasions of the salvation of any particular person. Each of these are separated in time by 3 1/2 years and they outline Daniel's 70th week of years that we read about in Daniel 9:27. These events are specifically for the fulfillment of this prophecy and will never be repeated and only appear in time on these three occasions. These should not be confused with what we could properly called Spirit baptism which we read about in John 3:5, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Titus 3:5 and several other places. Spirit baptism is the invisible dimension of what occurs in the literal baptism ceremony. Thus, Spirit baptism and the baptism ceremony are one and the same thing for all intents and purposes. Spirit baptism is a salvation event tied to the literal baptism ceremony so it makes its appearance in Acts 10:48.

Therefore, they already experienced salvation before their water baptism.

So given in my judgment my foregoing comment correctly renders the proper state of affairs, I can't agree with your comment directly above.

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): The equality among Christians, which transcends all national and religious frontiers, with regard to their participation in salvation is experienced as a supernatural act, through one and the same experience of the Spirit, which removes all barriers between Jewish Christians and Gentiles (Acts 11:17) (2:499, Like, Beyreuther, the underlined is mine).

As I read your citation I don't see that it runs afoul of either of my comments above.

 

[Thistle]

Colossians 2:12 refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit - this is when one enters the NT church.

Naturally, I don't agree disagree with that, but that occurs in the literal baptism ceremony.

All who have undergone this baptism

Again there's no differentiation of literal baptisms in the Christian era Ephesians 4:5. There is a singular baptism which is spiritual 1 Corinthians 12:13, and it is ceremonial Acts 8:36–39.

have at the same time experienced the “circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11). The “true circumcision” (i.e., Christians) “worship in the Spirit” (Philippians 3:3). Since the Gentiles possessed the Holy Spirit and were worshipping in the Spirit (Acts 10:46) means they were the “true circumcision”/Christians before their water baptism.

As I talked about above these three events that we call "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" are not literal baptisms. The word "baptism" in that expression "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" is used and logically not literally. The "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a literal miracle, but it is only baptism analogically. Being the object of a miracle is not a salvation event. On the other hand, receiving the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit which occurs in a literal baptism is a salvation event.

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): When later in Caesarea the first pagans received the Holy Spirit and became members of the church, they also shared in the grace of worshipping and praising God "in other tongues", as again later the disciples of John the Baptist who became believers in Ephesus (Acts 10:46; 19:6) (3:1080, Word, H. Haarbeck).

I would say that the writer of this citation has not properly treated the Acts eight passage. And in Acts 19 the disciples received Christian baptism which is a ceremony performed in water. I'm quite sure that it would not be difficult to find citations and Christian reference books that you would disagree with as well.

 

[Fred]

But I draw a distinction between three unique events which I call "baptism of the Holy Spirit" including Jesus baptism at the hands of John the Baptist, Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4 and this event in Acts 10:45.

You make that distinction. The Bible doesn't.

 

[Fred]

receiving the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit which occurs in a literal baptism is a salvation event.

To be given the Holy Spirit and to receive the Holy Spirit and to have the Holy Spirit poured out on you all refer to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thistle]

You make that distinction. The Bible doesn't.

I understand that your judgment, it's not mine.

 

[Thistle]

To be given the Holy Spirit and to receive the Holy Spirit and to have the Holy Spirit poured out on you all refer to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

A lot of the language could be used interchangeably and it is, context provides the distinction.

 

[Fred]

A lot of the language could be used interchangeably and it is, context provides the distinction.

Proof?

 

[Thistle]

Proof?

The proof is that you can open up any dictionary or lexicon in any language and observe that there is more than one definition for every word.