Cop-out.
Baptism is a rite, not salvation !
- Thread starter robycop3
- Start date
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Anyone who denies that baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, 1 Peter 3:21-22, does not believe in Him whom He sent. That person is tacitly admitting that he or she believes in a god unmighty or that Jesus is not the incarnate Word or both.
The baptism with the Holy Spirit places a person into the body of Christ.
The Ark is a type of Christ. Just as Noah entered into the ark and then the waters of the flood came, so too a believer enters in Christ then the waters of baptism (ought to) come.
Thistle
Well-known member
Christian baptism is "with the Holy Spirit" or it's not Christian baptism.
The flood saved Noah not the ark. The flood came from God, God was never a threat to Noah, because Noah was a righteous man. The threat to Noah was from the wicked generation in which he lived. To put it in the imagery of Colossians two, the flood washed away the wicked generation, like spiritual circumcision removes the wicked man of flesh.
JonHawk
Well-known member
JonHawk said:
The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He sent.
So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Sonship Through the Spirit
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom 8
having been born anew of incorruptible seed; 1 Peter 1:21-25
The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He sent.
So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Baptizing them in the name of the Father
God commands all men to repent; Acts 17:30-32and of the Son
"Then their sins will be forgiven, and by faith in Me they will become part of God’s holy people." Acts 26:18and of the Holy Spirit
We are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:31-32Sonship Through the Spirit
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom 8
He was revealed these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead ...
having been born anew of incorruptible seed; 1 Peter 1:21-25
Or they are convinced that they are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross (baptized unto His death) and God who raised up the Lord also raises us up by His power through faith (baptized by the Spirit). But good luck believing that your bath water saves.
Last edited:
Thistle
Well-known member
In this final comment you seem to be confusing the necessary means with a sufficient means for salvation. You really should reflect on that distinction and reconsider. Apart from that difference I really appreciate what you said in this post.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
If God is almighty as Scripture says then what He says is the way it is. If Jesus is the Word incarnate then what He says is the way it is.
“38. Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39. “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”” (Acts 2:38-39, NASB)
That's a creative false interpretation since that section of Scripture says the eight were saved by or through water.
“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1Pe 3:20, KJVA)
Thistle
Well-known member
Very elegantly defended.
When Noah was in the ark he was protected from the wrath of God.
Your confusion con concerning Colossians 2 was already addressed here:
https://forums.carm.org/threads/baptism-is-a-rite-not-salvation.231/page-56#post-620843
The above was never once commanded to anyone else but the Jews of that time period. Furthermore, the gift of the Holy Spirit was received before the Cornelius and the Gentiles were water baptized. In Acts 2:38 it took place afterwards.
That is not the same.
A vivid picture of what water baptism shows.
They were already protected in the ark.
1. Before the waters of the flood came, they were already sealed in the ark (Luke 17:27). Likewise, before one is water baptized today they are already sealed in Christ (Ephesians 1:13).
2. The ark was provided before the cataclysm so was Christ (Revelation 13:8).
3. The ark provided deliverance to Noah while Christ provides deliverance to us (Colossians 1:13).
4. There was only one ark and there is only one Savior (Acts 4:12).
5. God revealed the ark to Noah and God reveals Christ to us (2 Corinthians 4:6).
6. God waited patiently for those to come into the ark and He waits patiently for people to receive Christ (1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:9).
7. There was a limited amount of time to enter the ark (Genesis 7:11-13) just as there is a limited amount of time to receive salvation in Christ (2 Corinthians 6:2).
8. The ark was made of wood (Genesis 6:14). Christ was the root out of parched ground (Isaiah 53:2) and a branch (Isaiah 11:1).
9. The ark was to have a "cover/pitch" (kopher) inside and out (Genesis 6:14). It had no value without this covering. This same word "kaphar" (verb form) is used to describe the atonement because of the blood of Christ (Leviticus 17:11).
10. Inside the ark one was saved from God's wrath - the same with Christ (John 3:36).
11. Only a few people were saved in the ark (Genesis 7:7) while only a few people will be saved in Christ (Matthew 7:13, 14).
JonHawk
Well-known member
JonHawk said:
The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He sent.
So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Sonship Through the Spirit
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom 8
He was revealed these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead ...
having been born *anew of incorruptible seed; 1 Peter 1:21-25
Or they are convinced that they are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross (baptized unto His death) and God who raised up the Lord also raises us up by His power through faith (baptized by the Spirit). But good luck believing that your bath water saves.
“Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace; Rom 5
The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He sent.
So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Baptizing them in the name of the Father
God commands all men to repent; Acts 17:30-32and of the Son
"Then their sins will be forgiven, and by faith in Me they will become part of God’s holy people." Acts 26:18and of the Holy Spirit
We are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:31-32Sonship Through the Spirit
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom 8
He was revealed these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead ...
having been born *anew of incorruptible seed; 1 Peter 1:21-25
Or they are convinced that they are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross (baptized unto His death) and God who raised up the Lord also raises us up by His power through faith (baptized by the Spirit). But good luck believing that your bath water saves.
God is not the author of confusion but of peace; 1 Cor 6:14
“Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace; Rom 5
BJ Bear
Well-known member
They are convinced of their imagination since if God is almighty as Scripture says then it is the way He says it is rather than it is the way some sinful creature mutilates, abuses, and denies His sure word.
That is another blatant misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what Scripture actually says and means.
Thistle
Well-known member
Except God didn't direct his wrath toward Noah.
Which was soundly dispatched here:
Baptism is a rite, not salvation !
You may be quoting scripture but it doesn't help me to understand you. Make a statement in your own words so I can understand your thoughts. Scripture is clear, For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he...
forums.carm.org
Correct, because he was protected in the ark!
Which was refuted here:
Baptism is a rite, not salvation !
You may be quoting scripture but it doesn't help me to understand you. Make a statement in your own words so I can understand your thoughts. Scripture is clear, For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he...
forums.carm.org
JonHawk
Well-known member
JonHawk said:
The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He sent.
So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Baptizing them in the name of the Father
God commands all men to repent; Acts 17:30-32
and of the Son
"Then their sins will be forgiven, and by faith in Me they will become part of God’s holy people." Acts 26:18
and of the Holy Spirit
We are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:31-32
Sonship Through the Spirit
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom 8
He was revealed these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead ...
having been born *anew of incorruptible seed; 1 Peter 1:21-25
Or they are convinced that they are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross (baptized unto His death) and God who raised up the Lord also raises us up by His power through faith (baptized by the Spirit). But good luck believing that your bath water saves.
“Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace; Rom 5
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess 2
The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He sent.
So we're all commanded to repent since it is the Spirit who gives life. (John 6:62-63)
Baptizing them in the name of the Father
God commands all men to repent; Acts 17:30-32
and of the Son
"Then their sins will be forgiven, and by faith in Me they will become part of God’s holy people." Acts 26:18
and of the Holy Spirit
We are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:31-32
Sonship Through the Spirit
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom 8
He was revealed these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead ...
having been born *anew of incorruptible seed; 1 Peter 1:21-25
Or they are convinced that they are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross (baptized unto His death) and God who raised up the Lord also raises us up by His power through faith (baptized by the Spirit). But good luck believing that your bath water saves.
God is not the author of confusion but of peace; 1 Cor 6:14
“Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace; Rom 5
What sinful rebels imagine is irrelevant. We all know that outside of repentance granted through Christ, they are hellbound.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess 2
Thistle
Well-known member
I don't mean to be uncharitable by only citing the part of your post that I disagree with, but quite frankly I just agree with everything else that you said, so this is really only the only point for discussion. The apostle Paul makes it clear that we are saved by faith but he still affirms that were saved in baptism.
"having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
- Colossians 2:12 NASB95
https://forums.carm.org/threads/baptism-is-a-rite-not-salvation.231/page-56#post-620843
Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were worshiping in the Spirit before their water baptism.
Thistle
Well-known member
The error of your argument was exposed here:
Baptism is a rite, not salvation !
You may be quoting scripture but it doesn't help me to understand you. Make a statement in your own words so I can understand your thoughts. Scripture is clear, For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he...
forums.carm.org