Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Wrong answer. God saves not your faith.
Baptism is necessarily Gospel
- Thread starter BJ Bear
- Start date
Wrong answer. God saves not your faith.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Buckets -
water only for JOHN
Member
If you mean buckets of tears than I have a theory for you.
John the Baptist was recognises as the voice of one crying in the desert.
Could the statement be literally ""crying"" .
What if the water he baptised the disciples in was to wash away their sins which would mean washing up after weeping?
At Paul's conversion Ananias came in and said to Paul what are you waiting for get up be baptised and wash away your sins.
So could it be possible Paul was on his knees for 3 days praying and in the middle of his baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When Ananias came to him and said what are you waiting for get up be Baptized.
Have you ever read Matt Slicks testimony? Search its on the internet.
He writes a foot note saying what happened to him he does not understand.
" I believe crying tears equals living water"
JOHN 7:37-39
Could be a metaphor for crying.
And one more thing...
Search the shortest verse in the New Testament
Revelation 7:17
Scripture says every knee shall bow tongue shall confess.
Luke 7:40-50
Woman washes Jesus feet with her tears
2nd Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret leading to salvation but the sorrow of the world produces death.
John the Baptist was recognises as the voice of one crying in the desert.
Could the statement be literally ""crying"" .
What if the water he baptised the disciples in was to wash away their sins which would mean washing up after weeping?
At Paul's conversion Ananias came in and said to Paul what are you waiting for get up be baptised and wash away your sins.
So could it be possible Paul was on his knees for 3 days praying and in the middle of his baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When Ananias came to him and said what are you waiting for get up be Baptized.
Have you ever read Matt Slicks testimony? Search its on the internet.
He writes a foot note saying what happened to him he does not understand.
" I believe crying tears equals living water"
JOHN 7:37-39
Could be a metaphor for crying.
And one more thing...
Search the shortest verse in the New Testament
Revelation 7:17
Scripture says every knee shall bow tongue shall confess.
Luke 7:40-50
Woman washes Jesus feet with her tears
2nd Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret leading to salvation but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Manfred
Well-known member
Are you justified by baptism?
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Anyone who actually reads scripture, including Ephesians 2, should realize that God saves. Baptism is from God and saves the passive person being baptized through the resurrection of Christ.
People believe that and will be saved. People that don't believe that are condemned already. (There is no relative pronoun in search of an antecedent in Mark 16:16.)
BJ Bear
Well-known member
We are Justified by God's grace in Christ Jesus to and for all men. Baptism into Christ is from God and to and for all men. We receive this gift from God through faith.
Manfred
Well-known member
Non answer
What does the Bible say?
Look it up. No where does the Bible say you are justified by baptism.
Justified by faith.
What does it mean to be justified when we talk salvation?
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
If we have peace with God through faith in Jesus, how are we only justified once we are baptized?
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Your response of "non answer" is a non sequitur because you are trying to define faith in Christ apart from what the Lord has given us to believe.
We can't always put the events of scripture in chronological order but some of the big block stuff we can. For example, we know that the incarnation is before the crucifixion, the crucifixion before the ressurection, the ressurection before Pentecost, etc.
It was after the ressurection that Jesus opened the minds of the disciples to understand the scriptures, what many modern Christians call the old testament, Luke 24.
The ones with the right understanding of scripture and the gift of the Holy Spirit went on to proclaim repentance and the forgiveness of sins in His name in this way, "Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call." -EMTV
The faithful servants of the Lord with a right understanding of scripture proclaim the forgiveness sins in His name as baptism in His name for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, etc.
Another obvious demonstration of this is the often misused and abused by some recounting of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. Philip began preaching Christ from the OT and when they came across water it was the eunuch that wanted to be baptized. After it was over he went on rejoicing because baptism in the name of Jesus is for the forgiveness of sins, etc. Acts 8.
water only for JOHN
Member
MARK 16:16.
For those who believe and are baptised will be saved.
It's the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Saves you.
Manfred
Well-known member
How does Paul describe the action/consequence of faith? Is it faith or baptism that justifies.
Yes, that does not change the fact that no where in scripture does it say you are justified by baptism.
Scripture is explicit in that it clearly teaches justification by faith.
You are presuming that justification follows faith.
I do not have to presume that the crucifixion occurred after the incarnation and Pentecost after the resurrection. It is explicitly stated in scripture.
When did Peter receive the gift of the HS?
Him and the others were sitting in the upper room not even a hour before his sermon.
By what means were they baptized when they received the Holy Spirit, or was immersion in water an exception for the 120 in the upper room?
Here is already an exception to your claim of chronological steps that cause salvation.
So Paul was disobedient when he went around preaching the gospel? He excludes baptism in the gospel.
You know when Philip went to Samaria and he preached the gospel, and baptized the people there they did not receive the Holy Spirit.
You still have to show me where the scriptures teach that you are justified by babtism and that justification by faith is an incorrect teaching.
Manfred
Well-known member
What does it mean to be justified?
What does the Bible teach about justification?
squirrelyguy
Well-known member
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel." - 1 Cor. 1:17
water only for JOHN
Member
Justification is when you're baptised in the Holy Spirit.. Paul was justified in acts 22:16 at his conversion.
Jesus says you are justified by your words.
Manfred
Well-known member
Please show a verse that says you are justified by the infilling.
What does the bible teach about justification.
It is not to difficult to look it up.
Manfred
Well-known member
Where, and in what context?
Manfred
Well-known member
Don't you post as an Atheist on the atheism boards?
Is it not against the rules for Atheists to have access to and disrupt Christians on these boards?
Let me know if you are an atheist, posing as a Christian, or why are you challenging the Christian faith as a "Christian" on the atheism board?
Now I understand why you want to bring Calvinism into that conversation.
Sorry, but that's just not cricket old man!
Yes I'm an atheist, but I also study Biblical history and those points of interest. I would put on that hat in the proper forum and leave the rest behind. Salvation by works as opposed to Pauline principles of salvation by grace is of great interest to me and what changed from Jesus to Paul - when and why.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
The context doesn"t allow allow for the way you seem to be using the passage because obviously Paul baptized.
You do distinguish between being sent to do one thing rather than another and being sent not to do one thing but another, don"t you? Or to put it more directly and simply, does your interpretation imply that Paul sinned when he baptized?
BJ Bear
Well-known member
That is a lot of stuff, but i will try to address it in close to the order you posted it.
To the first and third points, unlike Paul you are trying to seprate Christ from baptism into Christ and trying to imply it is the scriptural witness regarding faith and justification by faith. That is a gross error.
"Galatians 3:26-27
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -EMTV
To the second point, Peter like the others who received the Spirit on Pentecost after his baptism. The length of time between some of their baptisms and the reception of the Holy Spirit was governed by the timing of the crucifixion and the resurrection. it was the crucified and risen Loord who poured out the Holy Spirit which He received from the Father, see Acts 2. So it is an error to say that there is an error in the chronology of Scripture or the right reflection of that chronology.
To the fourth point, Paul doesn't separate baptism from the gospel, for example, see the passages from Galatians above, and he did baptize people. See my reply to squirrel guy for more on this point.
To the fifth point, the preaching of Philip and the baptism by Philip, who was not an Apostle, wasn't complete at that time as the context explains. "Acts 8:16
For He had not yet fallen upon any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of Christ Jesus." -EMTV
The last paragrapgh was repetitive and already addressed above.