Be A Man!

treeplanter

Well-known member
Your evidence is?
Subjective is that which is filtered through personal thoughts and feelings
Objective is that which is not filtered through personal thoughts and feelings

It's self evident that morality is subjective

Morality is a judgement and judgement is something formulated
All formulation {i.e. action of devising} that occurs is, by definition, a function of a mind
A mind, be it that of man or be it that of God, is, by definition, informed by personal thought and feeling
 

Ignatius

Active member
Why doesn't God be a man and explain Himself?

Any and every moral position that I take, I am more than happy to explain!

Why can't God do the same?

Yeah, yeah, sure, I know, you've told me time and again - God isn't subject to the same requirements that we are...


What I want to know, though, is HOW and WHY it isn't cowardly of God to refuse to step up and do what even I, an infinitely weak and imperfect being, am willing to do?


Anyone??
He has explained but it's amazing how insecure you get in the face of a real man
All morality is subjective given that all moral judgements are filtered through one's own personal thoughts and feelings - be it the the thoughts and feelings of man or be it the thoughts and feelings of God
I disagree. There is natural law which dictates morality to a large extent. Slavery is a great example. It was legal but NEVER moral. Why? Because no man would ever want to be a slave. This is especially true for the slave owner. This is true for other things as well like stealing. Man is entitled to the fruits of his labor. Taking that from him is immoral. Same with life.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
He has explained but it's amazing how insecure you get in the face of a real man
God hasn't explained each of His moral positions to me!

I am insecure in the face of a real man?
What do you mean?
I disagree. There is natural law which dictates morality to a large extent. Slavery is a great example. It was legal but NEVER moral. Why? Because no man would ever want to be a slave. This is especially true for the slave owner. This is true for other things as well like stealing. Man is entitled to the fruits of his labor. Taking that from him is immoral. Same with life.
Indeed, there IS what you might refer to as a "natural law" that DOES dictate morality to a large degree...

Christianity would term it thusly:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

And this moral judgement, the so-called Golden Rule, IS subjective

It is only by filtration through our thoughts and feelings that we have arrived at the conclusion that it is, in fact, good to treat others as we, ourselves, wish to be treated

And, yes, I agree with you that slavery is NEVER, EVER a good and moral thing
Luckily, most every human being on earth agrees with you and I on this matter
And how did we arrive at this conclusion?

We decided, after having processed the issue through our individual thoughts and feelings, that slavery is something that we do not wish to be subjected to and, therefore, we should not inflict upon others

In short, we decided subjectively

And those psychopaths who come to a different conclusion than we do?
We judge them and we deal with them accordingly

For the life of me, I don't understand this mindset that the world somehow falls apart unless morality is objective...???

*YHVH, however, condoned and promoted slavery in the OT and, on this basis, is utterly unworthy of our respect - much less devotion
 
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Ignatius

Active member
God hasn't explained each of His moral positions to me!

I am insecure in the face of a real man?
What do you mean?

Indeed, there IS what you might refer to as a "natural law" that DOES dictate morality to a large degree...

Christianity would term it thusly:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

And this moral judgement, the so-called Golden Rule, IS subjective

It is only by filtration through our thoughts and feelings that we have arrived at the conclusion that it is, in fact, good to treat others as we, ourselves, wish to be treated

And, yes, I agree with you that slavery is NEVER, EVER a good and moral thing
Luckily, most every human being on earth agrees with you and I on this matter
And how did we arrive at this conclusion?

We decided, after having processed the issue through our individual thoughts and feelings, that slavery is something that we do not wish to be subjected to and, therefore, we should not inflict upon others

In short, we decided subjectively

And those psychopaths who come to a different conclusion than we do?
We judge them and we deal with them accordingly

For the life of me, I don't understand this mindset that the world somehow falls apart unless morality is objective...???

*YHVH, however, condoned and promoted slavery in the OT and, on this basis, is utterly unworthy of our respect - much less devotion
No man has to explain himself to you least of all God. He has left you what you need to know. Take it leave it. He lets you make your decision like the man you claim to be. If I tell you tomorrow is Tuesday but you don't believe it how much convincing should I do before I realize you can't or won't get it?
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
No man has to explain himself to you least of all God. He has left you what you need to know. Take it leave it. He lets you make your decision like the man you claim to be. If I tell you tomorrow is Tuesday but you don't believe it how much convincing should I do before I realize you can't or won't get it?
You're wrong, Iggy

God, of all beings, MOST ESPECIALLY, owes it to each of us to explain Himself!

The one claiming never, ever to be wrong is the one upon whom it is incumbent to provide detailed explanation of how and why he is right

The one asking that he be followed is the one upon whom it is incumbent to provide detailed explanation as to how and why he should be followed



God has left everything that I need to know in order to make an informed decision whether or not to follow Him?

Wrong again, Iggy

Going back to the issue of slavery that you introduced into the discussion:
God condoned and promoted slavery
God condoned and promoted something that you and I fully agree is evil and immoral

Today, God ostensibly condemns slavery - at least, according to His followers, but nowhere in scripture does God ever say that the act and practice of one human being owning another human being as a piece of property is an abomination

How, then, can you possibly say that God has left to me everything that I need to know before deciding whether or not He is worthy of my devotion???

My inclination is to reject a god who condones and promotes slavery
If YHVH had a good and just reason for condoning and promoting slavery then I want to hear it
I NEED TO HEAR IT before I will ever even consider following Him
 

Ignatius

Active member
You're wrong, Iggy

God, of all beings, MOST ESPECIALLY, owes it to each of us to explain Himself!

The one claiming never, ever to be wrong is the one upon whom it is incumbent to provide detailed explanation of how and why he is right

The one asking that he be followed is the one upon whom it is incumbent to provide detailed explanation as to how and why he should be followed



God has left everything that I need to know in order to make an informed decision whether or not to follow Him?

Wrong again, Iggy

Going back to the issue of slavery that you introduced into the discussion:
God condoned and promoted slavery
God condoned and promoted something that you and I fully agree is evil and immoral

Today, God ostensibly condemns slavery - at least, according to His followers, but nowhere in scripture does God ever say that the act and practice of one human being owning another human being as a piece of property is an abomination

How, then, can you possibly say that God has left to me everything that I need to know before deciding whether or not He is worthy of my devotion???

My inclination is to reject a god who condones and promotes slavery
If YHVH had a good and just reason for condoning and promoting slavery then I want to hear it
I NEED TO HEAR IT before I will ever even consider following Him
I have told you before and I will say it again he HAS explained himself but you refuse to accept it. Thats not his fault. You are free to chose as your intellect and will allows. Youre apparently a bloody full grown human being. You made a choice now accept it. Nothing God does will convince you, I know that, you know that and God knows that. It's up to you not him.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
I have told you before and I will say it again he HAS explained himself but you refuse to accept it. Thats not his fault. You are free to chose as your intellect and will allows. Youre apparently a bloody full grown human being. You made a choice now accept it. Nothing God does will convince you, I know that, you know that and God knows that. It's up to you not him.
I have told you before and I will say it again - God HAS NOT explained Himself to me
{and I would know better than you!}


I believe that to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon another human being is evil and immoral

God consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon human beings
Therefore, God is evil and immoral

Example:
God drowned innocent babies in the Flood
{Presumably in order to save them from a fallen world and resurrect them to a better one}
God could have accomplished this end through other, non-harmful means, but He chose, instead, to inflict the needless harm of drowning

On this basis, I reject Him as an evil, immoral god utterly unworthy of my devotion

Now, if He truly loves me and wants for me to love Him, then He owes it to me to explain Himself to me!

Were God to show me that He is not the evil and immoral being I believe Him to be then I will happily come to Him

I am open to the possibility that drowning babies was the best and perhaps even the only means by which to save and resurrect those babies

I am open to the possibility that God is not evil and immoral

However, God has thus far refused to reveal this to me - and you have absolutely no basis on which to claim that He has!
 

Ignatius

Active member
I have told you before and I will say it again - God HAS NOT explained Himself to me
{and I would know better than you!}


I believe that to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon another human being is evil and immoral

God consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon human beings
Therefore, God is evil and immoral

Example:
God drowned innocent babies in the Flood
{Presumably in order to save them from a fallen world and resurrect them to a better one}
God could have accomplished this end through other, non-harmful means, but He chose, instead, to inflict the needless harm of drowning

On this basis, I reject Him as an evil, immoral god utterly unworthy of my devotion

Now, if He truly loves me and wants for me to love Him, then He owes it to me to explain Himself to me!

Were God to show me that He is not the evil and immoral being I believe Him to be then I will happily come to Him

I am open to the possibility that drowning babies was the best and perhaps even the only means by which to save and resurrect those babies

I am open to the possibility that God is not evil and immoral

However, God has thus far refused to reveal this to me - and you have absolutely no basis on which to claim that He has!
You can repeat it all you like what you mean is you dont like how God has explained himself. Nobody cares. It's that simple. You have made up your mind. Now wherever comes of it you will have to accept. It's going to be like telling the cop who stopped you for speeding that you didn't know what the speed limit was. Actually you probably have a better shot with God than you do the cop but the argument is flaccid in both instances.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
You can repeat it all you like what you mean is you dont like how God has explained himself. Nobody cares. It's that simple. You have made up your mind. Now wherever comes of it you will have to accept. It's going to be like telling the cop who stopped you for speeding that you didn't know what the speed limit was. Actually you probably have a better shot with God than you do the cop but the argument is flaccid in both instances.
You claim that God has explained how and why He is not evil and immoral despite having consciously and purposefully inflicted the needless harm of drowning upon innocent babies

Great - then share with me what that explanation is!
 

ferengi

Well-known member
You claim that God has explained how and why He is not evil and immoral despite having consciously and purposefully inflicted the needless harm of drowning upon innocent babies

Great - then share with me what that explanation is!
PRove they were innocent. This is laughable coming from the atheist whos abortion infanticide has slaughtered 60 million.
So were those lived objectively valuable?
 

Ignatius

Active member
You claim that God has explained how and why He is not evil and immoral despite having consciously and purposefully inflicted the needless harm of drowning upon innocent babies

Great - then share with me what that explanation is!
What drowning babies? From scripture?
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
What drowning babies? From scripture?
Genesis 6:13
"So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."

Genesis 7:4
"Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

Every living creature - all people
Destroyed and wiped from the face of the earth
 

Ignatius

Active member
Genesis 6:13
"So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."

Genesis 7:4
"Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

Every living creature - all people
Destroyed and wiped from the face of the earth
Oh yes the evil God holding people responsible for their choices.

Not all people were killed.
 
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