Be quiet - the parents don't have to know

[Crazy Ivan]

I'm not for one moment suggesting that genuine gender dysphoria is triggered by bullying, though there may be an element of the disconnect between what society expects and what the individual feels, that is in play. It is the distress that the illness, not the gender divergence. Homosexuality is not an illness, though it may lead to an increased susceptibility to illness. Neither is gender divergence. Ok, it increases risk and vulnerability, but that doesn't make it an illness. We used to treat thalidomide children with prosthetics that made them look more normal, but we're useless functionally. The aim was to reduce stigma and allow those with deformed limbs to be accepted, even if their practical lives were made worse. Look around you now. It's a common sight to see blades instead of artificial feet, or practical prosthetics that do the job of hands rather than mimicking normal ones. That's what's happening now to the Trans community. Instead of covering up, they are there to be seen, and their lives are better for it. And frankly, so are ours. There's no need for pejorative labels, which is what mental illness is. Disability, or abnormality is not the same thing as illness. People with dwarfism for example, are still people who can achieve in every kind of endeavour. We wouldn't dream of saying what a pity you aren't taller and giving them stilts to walk on. We make adjustments, and so we should for the gender divergent. It's not as if it's a demanding adjustment. We just need to learn a new name and pronoun set. Calling this accepting a lie, is like saying that short people are really tall.

I like some of what you're saying here, and I agree that people should be as they are - so if a boy wishes to present himself as a girl, I mean, he has the right to do that, and mistreatment of any kind is uncalled for and is unhelpful (at best).

But...

(1) A boy thinking he's a girl.....doesn't ACTUALLY make him a girl. Just like the anorexic thinking she's fat doesn't make her actually fat, and just as the body dysmorphic thinking he has a misshapen nose doesn't actually make his nose misshapen. We recognize that there is a disconnect between the thinking and the physical reality, and we rightly say that the reason for the disconnect is MENTAL, not physical. If it's harmless, and doesn't impair the person in any way, we don't label it a mental ILLNESS, but it's still a problem with the person's THINKING, not an actual problem with their physical body.

(2) I agree that it is wrong for the term "mental illness" to be used as a pejorative. I have long advocated on this forum (and even started a thread on this a while back) advocating for people who have mental disorders or mental illnesses or mental conditions, and calling on society to stop stigmatizing people who have them. It's tragic. That being said, it's NOT automatically pejorative to correctly point out that a person may have a mental illness. It's not dehumanizing a person, and it's not a pejorative, to tell someone with acute body dysmorphia that they have a mental disorder. It's an accurate diagnosis. Same thing is true of a person with gender dysphoria.

(3) I'm glad you agree that bullying (which I use as shorthand for all sorts of mistreatment) isn't the CAUSE of a person's gender dysphoria. That's INTERNAL in nature. And by definition, gender dysphoria is when transgender identity comes with distress, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, etc. And that IS a mental illness. So the suicidal ideation comes not from bullying (contrary to what backup routinely claims), but from the person's gender dysphoria itself, which may be *exacerbated* by - but is not *caused* by - bullying.

Also, it's interesting. If you look up treatments for, say, body dysmorphia, they talk about counseling and medication and such.

"Treatment for BDD may include talk therapy or medicines. The best treatment is probably a combination of the two. Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is the most effective talk therapy. In CBT, you work with a mental health professional to replace negative thoughts and thought patterns with positive thoughts." - from: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/body-dysmorphic-disorder

So the treatment for body dysmorphia is to deal with the person's brain chemistry (through medication), in order to bring the brain back in line with physical reality, and through replacing negative thoughts with positive ones. That is, "Your nose ISN'T misshapen." (that's obviously an oversimplification)

But the treatment for gender dysphoria is: AFFIRM the person's warped views (warped in that they are the opposite of objective physical reality) of themselves, encourage them to "be themselves" and to even go through body changes to adapt their physical reality with their warped views.

Why, in every other case where a mental illness exists, is the goal of treatment to re-adjust the person's perceptions and mental state, when for gender dysphoria, the goal of treatment is to re-adjust the person's physical body, rather than the person's perceptions and mental state?

Doesn't that seem....way, way off to you?

 

[Temujin]

I like some of what you're saying here, and I agree that people should be as they are - so if a boy wishes to present himself as a girl, I mean, he has the right to do that, and mistreatment of any kind is uncalled for and is unhelpful (at best).

But...

(1) A boy thinking he's a girl.....doesn't ACTUALLY make him a girl. Just like the anorexic thinking she's fat doesn't make her actually fat, and just as the body dysmorphic thinking he has a misshapen nose doesn't actually make his nose misshapen. We recognize that there is a disconnect between the thinking and the physical reality, and we rightly say that the reason for the disconnect is MENTAL, not physical. If it's harmless, and doesn't impair the person in any way, we don't label it a mental ILLNESS, but it's still a problem with the person's THINKING, not an actual problem with their physical body.

(2) I agree that it is wrong for the term "mental illness" to be used as a pejorative. I have long advocated on this forum (and even started a thread on this a while back) advocating for people who have mental disorders or mental illnesses or mental conditions, and calling on society to stop stigmatizing people who have them. It's tragic. That being said, it's NOT automatically pejorative to correctly point out that a person may have a mental illness. It's not dehumanizing a person, and it's not a pejorative, to tell someone with acute body dysmorphia that they have a mental disorder. It's an accurate diagnosis. Same thing is true of a person with gender dysphoria.

(3) I'm glad you agree that bullying (which I use as shorthand for all sorts of mistreatment) isn't the CAUSE of a person's gender dysphoria. That's INTERNAL in nature. And by definition, gender dysphoria is when transgender identity comes with distress, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, etc. And that IS a mental illness. So the suicidal ideation comes not from bullying (contrary to what backup routinely claims), but from the person's gender dysphoria itself, which may be *exacerbated* by - but is not *caused* by - bullying.

Also, it's interesting. If you look up treatments for, say, body dysmorphia, they talk about counseling and medication and such.

"Treatment for BDD may include talk therapy or medicines. The best treatment is probably a combination of the two. Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is the most effective talk therapy. In CBT, you work with a mental health professional to replace negative thoughts and thought patterns with positive thoughts." - from: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/body-dysmorphic-disorder

So the treatment for body dysmorphia is to deal with the person's brain chemistry (through medication), in order to bring the brain back in line with physical reality, and through replacing negative thoughts with positive ones. That is, "Your nose ISN'T misshapen." (that's obviously an oversimplification)

But the treatment for gender dysphoria is: AFFIRM the person's warped views (warped in that they are the opposite of objective physical reality) of themselves, encourage them to "be themselves" and to even go through body changes to adapt their physical reality with their warped views.

Why, in every other case where a mental illness exists, is the goal of treatment to re-adjust the person's perceptions and mental state, when for gender dysphoria, the goal of treatment is to re-adjust the person's physical body, rather than the person's perceptions and mental state?

Doesn't that seem....way, way off to you?

There's a disconnect between the physical reality of the genitalia and the internal reality of the person who sees themselves as the opposite gender. That's true, obviously. However, your comparison with other conditions is not a fair one. Someone who believes that their arm belongs to someone else, faces a debilitating future should the arm be taken off. Incidentally, I understand that amputation IS used to treat very severe body dysmorphia. Presumably because the alternative, which risks the sufferer injuring themselves, is worse. Enabling a person to transition gender is actually not a big deal for their bodies. Many don't do anything other than change their appearance. Radical surgery is not the norm. The reason their transition is affirmed is that it's the best outcome for them, and for society. Which is why society officially endorses this procedure. It doesn't matter that this doesn't change a boy into a girl. It changes a cis male into a trans female. Everyone understands that, particularly the person themselves. They aren't pretending to be a girl, they are a transwoman. The damage is done by the morons who claim that there's no such thing as transwomen. That's the denialism that I would happily denounce as a mental illness.

 

[glenlogie]

There's a disconnect between the physical reality of the genitalia and the internal reality of the person who sees themselves as the opposite gender. That's true, obviously. However, your comparison with other conditions is not a fair one. Someone who believes that their arm belongs to someone else, faces a debilitating future should the arm be taken off. Incidentally, I understand that amputation IS used to treat very severe body dysmorphia. Presumably because the alternative, which risks the sufferer injuring themselves, is worse. Enabling a person to transition gender is actually not a big deal for their bodies. Many don't do anything other than change their appearance. Radical surgery is not the norm. The reason their transition is affirmed is that it's the best outcome for them, and for society. Which is why society officially endorses this procedure. It doesn't matter that this doesn't change a boy into a girl. It changes a cis male into a trans female. Everyone understands that, particularly the person themselves. They aren't pretending to be a girl, they are a transwoman. The damage is done by the morons who claim that there's no such thing as transwomen. That's the denialism that I would happily denounce as a mental illness.

Are you saying that as the person gets older they will never change their mind?

 

[Temujin]

Are you saying that as the person gets older they will never change their mind?

I don't recall saying that. Let me check......
No, I didn't say that. You must be reading something that isn't there. How unlike you.

 

[glenlogie]

I don't recall saying that. Let me check......
No, I didn't say that. You must be reading something that isn't there. How unlike you.

I knew I could count on you being sparky. You did not disappoint.

 

[glenlogie]

I don't recall saying that. Let me check......
No, I didn't say that. You must be reading something that isn't there. How unlike you.

So you are admitting that a person who has questions about their sexuality in their teens could feel different in their 20s and regret any surgeries, done before they changed their minds.

 

[Temujin]

I knew I could count on you being sparky. You did not disappoint.

That's ok. I try to please. I know that I can rely on you to try to distort what I say. And you too didn't disappoint.

Now, do you have a point to make about trans people who regret their transition or seek to detransition? I'm happy to have an honest discussion about any aspect of the topic.

 

[Temujin]

So you are admitting that a person who has questions about their sexuality in their teens could feel different in their 20s and regret any surgeries, done before they changed their minds.

No, I didn't say that either. This dishonest dichotomy is entirely yours. I haven't said anything about it. There's some discussion between other posters upstream, and some statistics showing that the vast majority of transitioned adults remain in their new gender identity. It's also true that few actually have surgery, so the number that regret having surgery is probably fairly small. Much smaller than the number of people who regret breast implants, for example.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

There's a disconnect between the physical reality of the genitalia and the internal reality of the person who sees themselves as the opposite gender. That's true, obviously. However, your comparison with other conditions is not a fair one.

Sure it is. It's the only such disconnect where we say the problem is with the physical body, not the person's mental state. It's totally bizarre.

Someone who believes that their arm belongs to someone else, faces a debilitating future should the arm be taken off. Incidentally, I understand that amputation IS used to treat very severe body dysmorphia. Presumably because the alternative, which risks the sufferer injuring themselves, is worse. Enabling a person to transition gender is actually not a big deal for their bodies. Many don't do anything other than change their appearance. Radical surgery is not the norm.

We are talking about medical and surgical transitioning, not choosing to wear clothing normally associated with the opposite gender.

The reason their transition is affirmed is that it's the best outcome for them, and for society. Which is why society officially endorses this procedure. It doesn't matter that this doesn't change a boy into a girl. It changes a cis male into a trans female.

So we're clear: you're agreeing that a trans female isn't REALLY a woman (or girl). It's just a man/boy presenting himself as a woman/girl, right?

Everyone understands that, particularly the person themselves. They aren't pretending to be a girl, they are a transwoman. The damage is done by the morons who claim that there's no such thing as transwomen. That's the denialism that I would happily denounce as a mental illness.

Of course there are trans women. A trans woman is a man who identifies as, or claims to be, a woman. But as you said above, that doesn't ACTUALLY make them a woman.

But of course, that flies in the face of transgender orthodoxy, when if you say that a trans woman isn't actually a woman, you could lose your job or whatever. In the US anyway, affirming transgendered people is to affirm their claim that they are the opposite gender. In other words, when Timmy (a boy) says he's a girl, you have to agree with Timmy that he's really a girl. If you don't do that, then you're committing a violation.

 

[glenlogie]

That's ok. I try to please. I know that I can rely on you to try to distort what I say. And you too didn't disappoint.

Now, do you have a point to make about trans people who regret their transition or seek to detransition? I'm happy to have an honest discussion about any aspect of the topic.

Since society does,not think that people are fully mature to make their own decisions until 21, wjy shouldn't person under that age be allowed to make a decision about getting life altering surgery?

 

[glenlogie]

No, I didn't say that either. This dishonest dichotomy is entirely yours. I haven't said anything about it. There's some discussion between other posters upstream, and some statistics showing that the vast majority of transitioned adults remain in their new gender identity. It's also true that few actually have surgery, so the number that regret having surgery is probably fairly small. Much smaller than the number of people who regret breast implants, for example.

So do you have a comment about it?

 

[Temujin]

Sure it is. It's the only such disconnect where we say the problem is with the physical body, not the person's mental state. It's totally bizarre.



We are talking about medical and surgical transitioning, not choosing to wear clothing normally associated with the opposite gender.



So we're clear: you're agreeing that a trans female isn't REALLY a woman (or girl). It's just a man/boy presenting himself as a woman/girl, right?



Of course there are trans women. A trans woman is a man who identifies as, or claims to be, a woman. But as you said above, that doesn't ACTUALLY make them a woman.

But of course, that flies in the face of transgender orthodoxy, when if you say that a trans woman isn't actually a woman, you could lose your job or whatever. In the US anyway, affirming transgendered people is to affirm their claim that they are the opposite gender. In other words, you have to agree with Timmy that he's really a girl. If you don't do that, then you're committing a violation.

A trans woman is REALLY a transwoman. What's difficult about that.

Most trans people do not have surgery. A great many have no medical intervention at all. Neither is necessary to be officially recognised as trans. What the person wants to do is live as their chosen gender, which means for a transwoman, being treated as a woman. How often do you ask someone of your acquaintance "Are you REALLY female?" Who is crass enough to think that, let alone say it. Frankly, anyone prepared to cause that much offence to a work colleague, whatever their gender, deserves to be fired. How does treating someone as a woman manifest itself? Do you offer them coffee in a mug with flowers and kittens? Do you refuse to "hang out"? I just don't see what the fuss is about. Just treat people as people, as they ask to be treated. It's not as if you are offering to have sex with them, which is the only occasion when this actually matters.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

A trans woman is REALLY a transwoman. What's difficult about that.

I didn't say they weren't. I said a trans woman isn't really a WOMAN. A trans woman is a MAN that claims to be a woman. That's not the same thing as ACTUALLY being a woman. A trans woman is...kind of its own category. But not a woman, obviously. You agreed that it doesn't change a boy into a girl.

Most trans people do not have surgery. A great many have no medical intervention at all. Neither is necessary to be officially recognised as trans. What the person wants to do is live as their chosen gender, which means for a transwoman, being treated as a woman.

Wellllll.....that's different. You are welcome to live your life however you wish. If you're a man and want to walk around in high heels and call yourself by a typically female name, have at it. Nobody's stopping you. But the minute that you now demand that *I* treat you AS IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY A WOMAN, now we have issues, because your identity - which even you acknowledge is wrong (i.e., it doesn't change a boy into a girl) - is now putting a demand on ME, that I go along with it.

How often do you ask someone of your acquaintance "Are you REALLY female?" Who is crass enough to think that, let alone say it. Frankly, anyone prepared to cause that much offence to a work colleague, whatever their gender, deserves to be fired. How does treating someone as a woman manifest itself? Do you offer them coffee in a mug with flowers and kittens? Do you refuse to "hang out"? I just don't see what the fuss is about. Just treat people as people, as they ask to be treated. It's not as if you are offering to have sex with them, which is the only occasion when this actually matters.

Your last point is right - just treat people as people. Care for them, be nice to them, whatever. I can do that with a transperson without agreeing with them that they're actually the opposite gender.

The minute that a man demands to get a scholarship set aside for women, or demands to play in the women's division in sports, or demands to use the women's locker room despite still being a man - now we have issues.

 

[Temujin]

Since society does,not think that people are fully mature to make their own decisions until 21, wjy shouldn't person under that age be allowed to make a decision about getting life altering surgery?

Societies differ. Most societies actually think that 18 year olds are sufficiently mature for all decisions. Twelve year olds make life changing, even life limiting decisions around medical treatment. Twenty one seems a bit elderly to me. In Scotland, the age where transition is possible is 16. Surgery is neither necessary nor common, do the premise of your question is faulty.

 

[BMS]

There's a disconnect between the physical reality of the genitalia and the internal reality of the person who sees themselves as the opposite gender

NOPE
We have been through this Temujin and you havent learnt . Biological sex isn't just genitalia but the rest of the anatomy and the chromosomes that determine them. THAT is the reality because it exists whatever people feel.
Your phrase 'internal reality of the person who sees themselves as the opposite gender" is NOT reality but an incongruence and dysphoria. In addition a man with XY chromosomes and male anatomy is limited in how much they can feel the opposite sex.

Enabling a person to transition gender is actually not a big deal for their bodies.

Well you tell that to the many people who have been mutilated and regretted believing your lie. People cannot transition to the opposite sex, only partially. Stop claiming otherwise, it is dishonest.

They can however live and present the best they can as the opposite sex to what they are, but that does of course present issues for society
And there is no such thing as cis male. People are either male, female or intersex, dont project your lies on others.

The reason their transition is affirmed is that it's the best outcome for them, and for society.

If left to the professionals with the likes of your views excluded.

It doesn't matter that this doesn't change a boy into a girl. It changes a cis male into a trans female.

A boy cant change into a girl by making up words. A boy is male and a girl is female.

Everyone understands that,

Obviously you dont

They aren't pretending to be a girl, they are a transwoman.

Girl is the young human female, woman is the adult human female. your misogynistic and homophobic lies are disgusting

The damage is done by the morons who claim that there's no such thing as transwomen.

Transwomen are men. Who are the morons now Temujin?

 

[glenlogie]

Societies differ. Most societies actually think that 18 year olds are sufficiently mature for all decisions. Twelve year olds make life changing, even life limiting decisions around medical treatment. Twenty one seems a bit elderly to me. In Scotland, the age where transition is possible is 16. Surgery is neither necessary nor common, do the premise of your question is faulty.

All that verbiage to duck the question. I asked your opinion, simply say you do not want to answer

 

[BMS]

Societies differ. Most societies actually think that 18 year olds are sufficiently mature for all decisions. Twelve year olds make life changing, even life limiting decisions around medical treatment. Twenty one seems a bit elderly to me. In Scotland, the age where transition is possible is 16. Surgery is neither necessary nor common, do the premise of your question is faulty.

Transition isnt possible even with surgery.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Societies differ. Most societies actually think that 18 year olds are sufficiently mature for all decisions.

Not to take us off track here, but just a very quick question about that. We know that physiologically, the male brain isn't really formed until around age 25. It explains why so many young men and boys make such STUPID, mind-bogglingly dumb, decisions on such a grand scale.

Why do we think that an 18-year old is thus mature enough to make "all" decisions?

This isn't being critical of your society or anything. I'm just more wondering than anything else. I mean, we KNOW scientifically that the male brain is underdeveloped at that point in time. We know that for a fact.

 

[BMS]

No, I didn't say that either. This dishonest dichotomy is entirely yours.

That is exactly what your generalised statement implied which is why glenlogie has been challenging you on your responses
Someone who is peddling the lie of gender ideology should not be accusing others of dishonesty.

 

[Temujin]

I didn't say they weren't. I said a trans woman isn't really a WOMAN. A trans woman is a MAN that claims to be a woman. That's not the same thing as ACTUALLY being a woman. A trans woman is...kind of its own category. But not a woman, obviously. You agreed that it doesn't change a boy into a girl.



Wellllll.....that's different. You are welcome to live your life however you wish. If you're a man and want to walk around in high heels and call yourself by a typically female name, have at it. Nobody's stopping you. But the minute that you now demand that *I* treat you AS IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY A WOMAN, now we have issues, because your identity - which even you acknowledge is wrong (i.e., it doesn't change a boy into a girl) - is now putting a demand on ME, that I go along with it.



Your last point is right - just treat people as people. Care for them, be nice to them, whatever. I can do that with a transperson without agreeing with them that they're actually the opposite gender.

The minute that a man demands to get a scholarship set aside for women, or demands to play in the women's division in sports, or demands to use the women's locker room despite still being a man - now we have issues.

Nope. A transwoman is not a man pretending to be a woman. She is a person with male sex and female gender. The term "a real woman" is useless in this context.

The only demand on you is common courtesy. You don't say, "Gosh, you're really ugly" even if you think it. The demand made on you is by the society you live in to permit people to rub along together. Anyone taking a deliberate step to misgender or deadname a transperson, is not just obnoxious, but may well be breaking employment conditions or the law of the land. Either way, I have no sympathy with them. It's the self-righteous humbug that is becoming as denounced as homophobia, and in my opinion, rightly so.