Be quiet - the parents don't have to know

[Crazy Ivan]

Nope. A transwoman is not a man pretending to be a woman.

It's a man who thinks he's a woman. I didn't say "pretending". There's an actual issue with his mental perception. It's...off. And if it causes distress and anxiety, it's actually a mental illness.

A person with body dysmorphia isn't "pretending" that their nose is misshapen. They actually THINK that it is. There's something wrong with their brain wiring.

She is a person with male sex and female gender. The term "a real woman" is useless in this context.

The only demand on you is common courtesy. You don't say, "Gosh, you're really ugly" even if you think it. The demand made on you is by the society you live in to permit people to rub along together.

Right. Common courtesy. But if that's all they were demanding, none of this would be a problem. But you KNOW that that's not all they're demanding. Lia Thomas isn't demanding common courtesy. Lia Thomas, despite being a man, is demanding to be allowed to compete against women in sports.

Anyone taking a deliberate step to misgender or deadname a transperson, is not just obnoxious, but may well be breaking employment conditions or the law of the land. Either way, I have no sympathy with them. It's the self-righteous humbug that is becoming as denounced as homophobia, and in my opinion, rightly so.

It's not misgendering Lia Thomas to say that Lia is a man. Lia's teammates, who all see Lia's male body parts in the locker room in which they're forced to share with him, see his male parts and - by their description - they work properly, and when Lia sees his attractive female teammates naked in the locker room, his male parts respond accordingly (i.e., they function quite properly, thank you very much), that makes them mighty uncomfortable. And quite clearly they recognize that he's still a man, no matter how off his personal view is of himself.

 

[mikeT]

Not to take us off track here, but just a very quick question about that. We know that physiologically, the male brain isn't really formed until around age 25. It explains why so many young men and boys make such STUPID, mind-bogglingly dumb, decisions on such a grand scale.

Why do we think that an 18-year old is thus mature enough to make "all" decisions?

In a society that has deemed such men as legally mature enough to possess and use weapons in military combat, a complaint like this falls flat.

The fact that this same man can't legally consume alcohol is aberrant. Preventing him from making changes to his own body would be equally so.

 

[BMS]

I'm not for one moment suggesting that genuine gender dysphoria is triggered by bullying, though there may be an element of the disconnect between what society expects and what the individual feels, that is in play.

What you might be suggesting with gender identity is already a lie. Bullying can occur anything, its not the issue. The issue is people like yourself and your ideology, without any professional expertise or understanding, affirming gender dysphoria in children, when no one can tell because they havent been through puberty. Children who are vulnerable with mental health issues must not be affirmed.

Homosexuality is not an illness, though it may lead to an increased susceptibility to illness. Neither is gender divergence.

So homosexuality is the sexual attraction to the opposite sex. What do you mean be gender divergence? If you mean gender dysphoria say so, dont make up nonsense

We used to treat thalidomide children with prosthetics that made them look more normal, but we're useless functionally. The aim was to reduce stigma and allow those with deformed limbs to be accepted, even if their practical lives were made worse.

That is sick mate. Thalidomide was not really known to cause the issues it did. If it had been known they would have withdrawn it. Many people are regretting puberty blockers hormones and surgery because of the gender identity lies you peddle when they are children. You dont have an excuse, you are guilty.

 

[glenlogie]

In a society that has deemed such men as legally mature enough to possess and use weapons in military combat, a complaint like this falls flat.

The fact that this same man can't legally consume alcohol is aberrant. Preventing him from making changes to his own body would be equally so.

You are ducking the question. A person in the military is supposed to do as they are told, so your analogy falls flat.

 

[glenlogie]

In a society that has deemed such men as legally mature enough to possess and use weapons in military combat, a complaint like this falls flat.

The fact that this same man can't legally consume alcohol is aberrant. Preventing him from making changes to his own body would be equally so.

Are you older than 25. I get the vibe you are not.

 

[BMS]

I say again, and your own clarification backs this up, the children are not driving this. The overwhelming majority of those who call themselves transgender, change their minds before any transitioning takes place. How then is transitioning such a problem? Particularly as of those that DO transition, the vast majority are content with the outcome. You are on the one hand complaining that huge numbers of children are encouraged to transition, and on the other hand saying that most don't do so. Again you avoid crediting those professionals dealing with these children with helping confused children come to the right decision.

You have been shown the evidence of the huge increase in children affected. You are just waffling. Your ideology has groomed them to mutilation.

"We", as in you and I, are not qualified to determine what is a mental illness and what is not.

Not about us, its about what the professionals say and how you dont acknowledge them. Your position is the same ideology as Mermaids and Stonewall which is now being exposed as a lie.

 

[Temujin]

It's a man who thinks he's a woman. I didn't say "pretending". There's an actual issue with his mental perception. It's...off. And if it causes distress and anxiety, it's actually a mental illness.

A person with body dysmorphia isn't "pretending" that their nose is misshapen. They actually THINK that it is. There's something wrong with their brain wiring.



Right. Common courtesy. But if that's all they were demanding, none of this would be a problem. But you KNOW that that's not all they're demanding. Lia Thomas isn't demanding common courtesy. Lia Thomas, despite being a man, is demanding to be allowed to compete against women in sports.



It's not misgendering Lia Thomas to say that Lia is a man. Lia's teammates, who all see Lia's male body parts in the locker room in which they're forced to share with him, see his male parts and - by their description - they work properly, and when Lia sees his attractive female teammates naked in the locker room, his male parts respond accordingly (i.e., they function quite properly, thank you very much), that makes them mighty uncomfortable. And quite clearly they recognize that he's still a man, no matter how off his personal view is of himself.

Sport is a different issue. It should in my view be sorted by the relevant sports body who write the rules for their competitions. I would have no problem with rules that ban transwomen from competing where appropriate, just as their are rules banning cis women with particularly high testosterone levels. If the trans person has a built in advantage, that's not fair competition, That's not difficult to sort.

What I'm talking about is normal social interaction at work, on transport, when shopping etc. It makes no difference in these circumstances, what may be the gender identity of the person you are interacting with. When you claimed that you were having demands put on you, were you talking as a team mate of Lia Thomas?

 

[BMS]

Nope. A transwoman is not a man pretending to be a woman.

Of course he is. What is a woman Temujin? A woman has XX chromosomes and female anatomy as opposed to a man who has XY chromosomes and male anatomy. Its either a man or a woman.

She is a person with male sex and female gender.

Nope. We have been through that lie. male and female are the biological sex. If someone is male, which is the sex, then they cant be female, which is the sex. This is the lie you could not defend. Indeed you told us sex and gender are not the same. Since they arent the same you cant use one to deny the other, its a lie.

The only demand on you is common courtesy.

No, the request is on you not to lie, and certainly not to lie and then try and bully others.

You don't say, "Gosh, you're really ugly" even if you think it.

Ugly is subjective, biological sex is objective.

The demand made on you is by the society you live in to permit people to rub along together.

And the demand on you is to not tell lies about people.

Anyone taking a deliberate step to misgender or deadname a transperson, is not just obnoxious,

Is not telling lies like you.

but may well be breaking employment conditions or the law of the land.

Only Marxist and fascists extremists enforce compelled speech. Oh and btw gender critical is not breaking the law, Maya Forstater won her tribunal over that. Dont lie about the law as well biology Temujin. And Harry Miller won his case and the judge said the police were acting like the gestapo and the Stasi, exactly as you are doing

Either way, I have no sympathy with them.

I have no sympathy with left wing woke ideologues.

It's the self-righteous humbug that is becoming as denounced as homophobia, and in my opinion, rightly so.

And wrongly so, according to many gays and lesbians.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

In a society that has deemed such men as legally mature enough to possess and use weapons in military combat, a complaint like this falls flat.

The fact that this same man can't legally consume alcohol is aberrant. Preventing him from making changes to his own body would be equally so.

It wasn’t a complaint.

 

[BMS]

Sport is a different issue.

Dont be ridiculous. Women are women by biological sex, they dont change. Men are men whether they take part in sport or not.

It should in my view be sorted by the relevant sports body who write the rules for their competitions.

As long as they dont segregate by sex.

I would have no problem with rules that ban transwomen from competing where appropriate,

Depends what sex they are

just as their are rules banning cis women with particularly high testosterone levels.

No such thing. Women are women by biological sex. Putting cis or trans infront to make it seem like they arent is a lie. Its misogynistic.
If you think you could have sport segregated by cis and trans instead of biological sex then describe it to us

If the trans person has a built in advantage, that's not fair competition, That's not difficult to sort.

By default men have a built in advantage over women. That is another reason in addition to the biological sex difference why sport is segregated. If you want to segregate by testosterone then bring on the high testosterone 100m

What I'm talking about is normal social interaction at work, on transport, when shopping etc.

Its not normal. Its an imaginary lie

It makes no difference in these circumstances, what may be the gender identity of the person you are interacting with.

There is no such actual thing as gender identity despite what some people claim. The medical profession refer to gender dysphoria and even some people with gender dysphoria have said there is no such thing as gender identity (ie Debbie Hayton, Amanda Yardley and Rose of Dawn)

When you claimed that you were having demands put on you, were you talking as a team mate of Lia Thomas?

:Lia Thomas is a male/man. He shouldn't be taking part in a woman's race because as a man, as soon as he does its no longer a woman's race

 

[Thistle]

Hanging out is something Americans do, presumably. There's no type of social behaviour, whether in mixed or single gender groups, the boys do that girls do not do. Nor is the notion of girls "hanging out" whatever that is, abnormal.

I assure you, there has never been any spot on planet earth where the male of the species does not "hang out." Weather they actually apply a label for this behavior or not, they certainly engage in the behavior. And never since the Garden of Eden has a woman been able to approximate this behavior. That's not bad, or inferior, it simply is. It might require a certain level of emotional ignorance that women simply don't possess.

 

[Temujin]

I assure you, there has never been any spot on planet earth where the male of the species does not "hang out." Weather they actually apply a label for this behavior or not, they certainly engage in the behavior. And never since the Garden of Eden has a woman been able to approximate this behavior. That's not bad, or inferior, it simply is. It might require a certain level of emotional ignorance that women simply don't possess.

I would love to see how researched by this rather sweeping, and on the face of it, ridiculous generalisation. I meant how do you know? Have you secretly been attending female failed hanging out sessions dressed as a woman? Have you any idea of the range of cultures that human society has entertained? Do you think that every male on the planet lives in some kind of Animal House Frat party?

 

[Furion]

What do you mean by "acting like girls"? Or conversely, what would you mean by "acting like boys"?

Under these definitions there would be no such thing as "acting like girls."

My expectations for behavior are the Biblical expectations: that my kids, for example, would be kind to others, would not gossip or lie, would not steal or covet, would treat others like they would want to be treated, etc. These behavioral expectations would be true for both my boys and girls alike.

Boys dressing/acting like girls is not exactly biblical. I don't know why you think it is. You move in and out of your biblical defense and couple it with your secular knowledge. I am trying to stay with your secular claims.

 

[BMS]

Pressured! People affirming gender identity ruining people's lives

 

[BMS]

I would love to see how researched by this rather sweeping, and on the face of it, ridiculous generalisation. I meant how do you know? Have you secretly been attending female failed hanging out sessions dressed as a woman? Have you any idea of the range of cultures that human society has entertained? Do you think that every male on the planet lives in some kind of Animal House Frat party?

What do you mean by a woman?

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Sport is a different issue. It should in my view be sorted by the relevant sports body who write the rules for their competitions. I would have no problem with rules that ban transwomen from competing where appropriate, just as their are rules banning cis women with particularly high testosterone levels. If the trans person has a built in advantage, that's not fair competition, That's not difficult to sort.

It’s not difficult? Really? Why is it suddenly ok to tell a trans woman that she’s not really a woman when it comes to sports? Does Britney Griner at 6’8” not have a biological advantage over women who are 5’7” in basketball?

What I'm talking about is normal social interaction at work, on transport, when shopping etc. It makes no difference in these circumstances, what may be the gender identity of the person you are interacting with. When you claimed that you were having demands put on you, were you talking as a team mate of Lia Thomas?

Well in normal interaction a trans person is almost always going to be treated normally, with standard kindness.

I object to any rule or standard that compels me somehow to affirm that a man identifying as a woman is actually a woman.

Certainly Lia’s teammates were having demands out on them and their only recourse was to quit the team. Appealing to the athletic department only got them a stern warning to play ball.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Under these definitions there would be no such thing as "acting like girls."

You keep insisting that there’s such a thing as “acting like girls”. You owe an explanation for what you mean by that. What do you mean by “acting like girls”?

Boys dressing/acting like girls is not exactly biblical. I don't know why you think it is. You move in and out of your biblical defense and couple it with your secular knowledge. I am trying to stay with your secular claims.

Give me passages that show us what boys are supposed to be like and what girls are supposed to be like.

 

[BMS]

What I'm talking about is normal social interaction at work, on transport, when shopping etc.

Then you are off topic.

It makes no difference in these circumstances, what may be the gender identity of the person you are interacting with.

Something that doesnt exist makes no difference. However if someone has gender dysphoria and is living as best they can as the opposite sex, that makes a difference when the biology is involved. A man who presents as a woman cant have treatment for menstruation that women have, whatever words you use

 

[BMS]

The tide is turning.

More suing is good for such a shocking social experiment

Perhaps Temujin and vibise can explain how a woman can become a man? Not what they might imagine, but how one can tell objectively.

 

[Temujin]

It’s not difficult? Really? Why is it suddenly ok to tell a trans woman that she’s not really a woman when it comes to sports? Does Britney Griner at 6’8” not have a biological advantage over women who are 5’7” in basketball?



Well in normal interaction a trans person is almost always going to be treated normally, with standard kindness.

I object to any rule or standard that compels me somehow to affirm that a man identifying as a woman is actually a woman.

Certainly Lia’s teammates were having demands out on them and their only recourse was to quit the team. Appealing to the athletic department only got them a stern warning to play ball.

No, it's not difficult. Examine the physical demands of your sport. Decide what is fair and what is not. Write the rules. Sport bodies are autonomous and pretty well insulated from the demands or expectations of wider society. There are golf clubs that don't allow women members at all. I've no idea how they would cope with a trans member.

I think that once again you are falling for the faux outrage, as if this was the most terrible dilemma ever faced by humanity. It really isn't. It's just not important to anyone, except the individuals and organizations directly concerned. Plus there's a lot of outright falsehoods being spread. There's a current furore in the UK over a person convicted of two particularly vicious tapes, who transitioned to female during the trial process. The uproar over this person being sent to a female prison! The condemnation of woke culture gone mad! The truth is that there's no automatic right for any trans person to be sent to a prison of their adopted gender. The Prison Service decides where to incarcerate someone on a case by case basis dependent on risk, amongst other things. The individual concerned is currently held in a local prison pending final allocation.