Belief comes before regeneration, salvation

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

Some passages SEEM to teach that faith precedes regeneration.
And some passages SEEM to teach that regeneration precedes faith.

Why does it seem to offend you so much that some of us have made a different decision than you on the meaning of Scripture?
 

Predestined

Well-known member
It's right here

Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

I love how this encounter between Jesus and Nicodemus provides an example of God’s universal salvational love and sets the context for probably the most well-known and beloved verse in Scripture, which explicitly declares God’s universal redemptive love for all of his creation


John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
 
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Howie

Well-known member
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!
He saved us ... by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit ... Titus 3:5
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

This is OT, and I tend to prefer NT over OT, for a number of reasons. The OT was (on the surface at least) about man achieving salvation by his own efforts. The purpose of the Law was to show us that this was impossible (Rom. 3:19-20), and then Paul continues in the next few chapters explaining how salvation is all of God, not by works, and not counting our sins.

I know this isn't going to convince you, and it wasn't intended to, but it is to explain why we're not going to bow down and agree with you just because you throw "verses" at us.

1) We have our own passages which teach regeneration prior to faith.
2) There are valid ways to interpret your proof-texts which don't require your interpretation. They are not as "clear cut" as you seem to think.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

First of all, upon close study of this passage, it occurs to me that this is not saying "believing comes after receiving", but that the phrase "to those who believed in his name" is a parenthetical comment, explaining and being synonymous with "who did receive him". The fact that you interpret them as two different things which have a temporal order suggests to me that you haven't studied this passage sufficiently, and that you are not doing justice to God's word.

But then again, you might be one of those who eschews study, and thinks that Scripture is clear and doesn't need to be "studied or "interpreted".

You also seem to be ASSUMING that the order different things are mentioned is equal to the chronologial order of events. This is not always the case. I think one of the clearest passages which show an explicit order is the Golden Chain of Redemption (Rom. 8:28-30), but even some posters on your side disagree that all the things listed are in chronological order.

The problem with John 1:12-13 is that both "received" and "born" are in the Aorist tense (past tense), which simply means that they were contemporaneous events. And verse 13 begins as an explanatory note about those who received/believed, that "they were born ... of God". It is just as natural to interpret it as saying they received him BECAUSE they were born of God, not that they were born of God as a result of receiving him.

In short, this passage is SILENT on the order of "regeneration" and "faith". You can't just say, "I'm going to force an interpretation that matches my theology, and that settles the issue." You just can't.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Kudos that at least John 1:12-13 was speaking of regeneration ("born of God"). This passage does NOT mention "regeneration". It is referring to (eternal) life, which comes AFTER regeneration. And yes, I know, you will not be satisfied with this answer, but the point is that if you want to convince us, or even just impress us, you have to actually ADDRESS this issue, and not just pretend it doesn't exist.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again, there is no mention of "regeneration" here, so Rom. 10 is silent on the issue of the order of faith and regeneration.

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

And if you were actually a Calvinist for "over 4 decades", then you would have known that Calvinists agree with EVERYTHING in that sentence.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Again, that is referring to (eternal) life, not "regeneration".

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

No mention of "regeneration" in this passage either, so it doesn't teach "faith precedes regeneration".

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

This is nothing but insulting ad hominem, which does not move the discussion forward.
I could say the exact same thing about you, but it would accomplish nothing.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel

Well, let's see....
When you commented on John 1:12-13, you talked about "receiving [Christ]", but now you're talking about "receiving the gospel", so it seems there's some muddled thinking going on.

Secondly, you have "believing the gospel" before "receiving the gospel".
How exactly can one "believe" something they haven't "received" yet?
More muddled thinking?

4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life

I'm sorry, no.
You haven't presented ONE passage that explicitly and undeniably teaches regeneration comes after faith. Not one.



Let me tell you a little story. I love playing chess. And I used to practise by playing games against myself. And I always wanted to win, so I didn't always play the best moves (probably as Black), because I didn't want it to be too difficult to win. Well, I ended up winning a lot of games, but I didn't really advance much in skill.

Doing theology is very similar. You can depend on taking the "low hanging fruit", and arguing straw-men, that makes your life easier. But it doesn't accomplish much, and it doesn't show respect for your opponent. And IMO it is also insulting to the word of God. People in this forum really need to work out their "critical thinking skills", and try to be far more fair about how a passage could be interpreted, and play "Devil's advocate" (if you pardon the pun) to try to better see things from the other side.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!
Hey Mr. Exegesis. Exodus 18 is addressed to whom?

Repent and live. The live there refers to regeneration? Prove it.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Hey Mr. Exegesis. Exodus 18 is addressed to whom?

Repent and live. The live there refers to regeneration? Prove it.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Audience and proof live in this text refers to regeneration.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Audience and proof live in this text refers to regeneration.
read what was written

What does it say?

How do all those sources define regeneration?

What did carm say?

How is it defined Lexically

3824 παλιγγενεσία, παλινγενεσία [paliggenesia /pal·ing·ghen·es·ee·ah/] n f. From 3825 and 1078; TDNT 1:686; TDNTA 117; GK 4098 and 4100; Two occurrences; AV translates as “regeneration” twice. 1 new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration. 1A hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death. 1B the renovation of the earth after the deluge. 1C the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught. 1D the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven. 1E other uses. 1E1 of Cicero’s restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile. 1E2 of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile. 1E3 of the recovery of knowledge by recollection.



James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

palingenesia (παλιγγενεσία, 3824), “new birth” (palin, “again,” genesis, “birth”), is used of “spiritual regeneration,” Titus 3:5, involving the communication of a new life

W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, and William White Jr., Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 517.

παλιγγενεσία (T WH παλινγεν. [cf. Tdf. Proleg. p. 77 bot.]), -ας, ἡ, (πάλιν and γένεσις), prop. new birth, reproduction, renewal, re-creation, (see Halm on Cic. pro Sest. § 140), Vulg. and Augustine regeneratio; hence, moral renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better

Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 474.
 

fltom

Well-known member
A heart of flesh is a new heart? LOL

OPPS

Hope this helps
Why? Do you think it is the old heart?

Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 

Howie

Well-known member
Why? Do you think it is the old heart?

Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
It's rebirth -- the beginning of Spiritual life, after which faith and understanding are given to the elect
 

fltom

Well-known member
It's rebirth -- the beginning of Spiritual life, after which faith and understanding are given to the elect
and a new heart

but faith precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 
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