Predestined
Well-known member
Got ya. Here is how I do it, God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise. As far as articulating goes I do it this way " if I can't dazzle them with my brilliance I baffle them with my bull".
God’s plan of salvation is so simple, so surprising, that the learned of this world often miss it.
What does it mean that God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27)? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise? What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 1:27?
www.gotquestions.org
Theo1689
Well-known member
So we can decide for ourselves, and we don't have to take your word for it?
And you're going to be okay with that?
Are you sure?
Back in the day, a man named Augustine wrote a prayer, "command what you will, and grant what you command." Another man named Pelagius responded by throwing a hissy-fit, and balked at the idea of denying "command implies ability". And from thenceforth a controversy was recognized, that continues to this day.
So I guess you need to pick your favourite heretic.
But keep this in mind... God commanded the Israelites to obey the Mosaic Law. We find out in Rom. 3:19-20 that the Law was never meant to be (successfully) obeyed, it was intended to convict us of our sin, which could only come about when we tried and failed. C.S. Lewis describes this very well in his book, "Mere Christianity":
"No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good."
[...]
"We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means—the only complete realist. Very well, then. The main thing we learn from a serious attempt to practise the Christian virtues is that we fail. If there was any idea that God had set us a sort of exam, and that we might get good marks by deserving them, that has to be wiped out. If there was any idea of a sort of bargain—any idea that we could perform our side of the contract and thus put God in our debts so that it was up to Him, in mere justice, to perform His side—that has to be wiped out."
[...]
I am trying to talk about Faith in the second sense, the higher sense. I said last week that the question of Faith in this sense arises after a man has tried his level best to practise the Christian virtues, and found that he fails, and seen that even if he could he would only be giving back to God what was already God's own. In other words, he discovers his bankruptcy.
[...]
He is misunderstanding what he is and what God is. And he cannot get into the right relation until he has discovered the fact of our bankruptcy.
[...]
Now we cannot, in that sense, discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't."
-- Lewis, C. S.. Mere Christianity . CrossReach Publications. Kindle Edition.
Scriptures related to man's INABILITY include John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13, John 8:34, and Rom. 6:16-22.
That's the whole point... You're ASSUMING "libertarian freedom" exists.
If there are two options, A & B, and you chose A, do you really NEED to have the "ability" to do B, since you never wanted to choose it in the first place?
I would be interested in knowing his theology.
Rogers is a Molinistic Arminian.
I believe Picirilli is a classical Arminian (maybe Wesleyan?).
Do you have any suggestions from Calvinists?
Theo1689
Well-known member
I understand that, and in a CONSENTUAL "teacher-student" relationship, it can be very effective.
Unfortunately, here at CARM everyone considers them the "teacher", and they want to ask the questions, and not give the answers. Sadly, the result is that nothing is accomplished, but people asking questions at each other, none answering them, and people accusing each other of "dodging" the questions.
Carbon
Super Member
If you Arminians and free willers actually believe belief comes before regeneration then why do you pray like a Calvinist?
Try being consistent with your beliefs. Practice praying like an Arminian. Bet ya can’t. ?
Just sayin.
Did that address anything he stated
Why don't you practice what you preach and evangelize as a Calvinist
touting total inability, unconditional election and absolute predestination
Bet you can't
Theo1689
Well-known member
Because those aren't topics of "evangelism".
You apparently don't understand the difference between "gospel" and "theology".
Oh so then you agree Calvinism is not the gospel then?
Thank you for that apparent confession
Theo1689
Well-known member
Anti-Calvinists hate the Calvinism so much that they make themselves enemies of Christ.
You want us to "poison the well" by presenting Calvinism when we present the gospel, to turn them away from Calvinism. But that won't turn them away from Calvinism, that would turn them away from CHRISTIANITY. Is that what you really want?
If Calvinists simply present the gospel (which we do), without adding the meat of Calvinism, then they can become Christians. At that point we would present the truth of Calvinism to them, and they may reject it (I guess you hope), but at least they would still be Christians at that point.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Neither is Arminianism.
The gospel doesn't include the specifics of soteriology.
Arminians and Calvinists proclaim the same gospel.
I'm sorry that you're ignorant of that.
Christ and Calvinism are not the same thing
Interesting. Are you saying preaching Calvinism would turn people away Christianity?
That is what it appears like
That is Calvinists acting like Arminians when preaching the gospel
but i am glad you affirm Calvinism is not the gospel
Theo1689
Well-known member
1Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
2Cor. 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Nope.
We're acting like Calvinists, and like Christ, when preaching the gospel.
Please cease MISREPRESENTING us.
Arminianism isn't the gospel either.
You are VERY confused.
The cross belongs in the gospel
Calvinism not so much
but your comments do not really appear to address the following
Interesting. Are you saying preaching Calvinism would turn people away Christianity?
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
He said we act like Arminians when we preach. Can you imagine listening to them praying for lost loved ones?
”Father, I have a precious sister who is lost. I pray that you move her in a way that saves her, but doesn’t violate her free will. I know You are a good God who does not desire any perish, so please save her, but in a way she freely exercises her free will.”
I truly believe they pray like Calvinists when they pray. That prayer, which is an (sort of) exaggeration, does not bring glory to Him, nor would be a sufficient prayer.
Theo1689
Well-known member
You're wrong.
You never answer MY questions, why should I answer yours?
Double standards much?
If you can't quote me saying something, then do NO suggest I believe it.
Double standards much?
Theo1689
Well-known member
"Yes, Lord... Try to save her, but don't ensure it, but instead leave it into her sinful hands to decide."
100% they do.
then why won't you preach it to the unconverted
That dies not sound like truth
your words
You want us to "poison the well" by presenting Calvinism when we present the gospel, to turn them away from Calvinism
seem to indicate that