Belief comes before regeneration, salvation

Chalcedon said:
Check this out on logic

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The problem with what they wrestle is one that many fall victim to when discussing logic..

The truth is that negations or falsities are not the flip side of a coin called reality.
Take unbelief for instance; unbelief is the negation of belief or the lack of belief. Unbelief isn't an occurrence or a state that occurs in reality, rather unbelief is just a lack of something occurring in reality, a lack of belief (unbelief) doesn't denote an occurrence of anything in reality.

So, if belief is necessary and must occur in reality in order to know the truth, then belief must be the basis of the truth and reality.
The mistake Matt made was chasing this guy down his rabbit hole, because treating negations like claims is a fools game.
 
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fltom said:
Typical

Many of the Calvinist here work on way to avoid responding to objections to their theology
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It's called “Spiritual Determinism”. God makes them avoid responding to objections to their theology. Whereas I can choose to ignore their theology. In their theology you did not “decide” to read this. God made you read this. Calvinism makes God the puppet master. We dance on His strings. God is directly responsible for evil acts as well as good.

The Calvinist believes "But you don't get to decide if you want Jesus in your life or not. God has made the decision for you, from the beginning of time. And there's nothing you can do about it. Jesus died only for the elected people, and the elected people will come to Him because He makes them come to Him. But the non-elected people are predestined to hell, for God's glory and purposes and good pleasure. In fact, God causes - not just allows, but causes - everything that happens, even sin and evil and unbelief and child abuse, for His glory, purposes, and good pleasure."
 
fltom said:
Typical

Many of the Calvinist here work on way to avoid responding to objections to their theology
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No answer huh? How does the Holy Spirit convict the unbeliever of sin? It can not be in the heart or mind because, like a good Pelagian, you deny the Spirits work prior to conversion is eternal.
 
Reformedguy said:
No answer huh? How does the Holy Spirit convict the unbeliever of sin? It can not be in the heart or mind because, like a good Pelagian, you deny the Spirits work prior to conversion is eternal.
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The Spirit works in the heart to libertarianly decide prior to conversion.
 
Kampioen said:
You make God weak because you deny that God has the sovereignty and omni ability to create libertarian choice in man. And you think that such a libertarian man with zero omni attributes can overpower God.
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If there were such a thing as "libertarian free will" (there isn't), and if man had it, then God could not ensure that his purposes would come to pass, because he could not determine what man would do.
 
ReverendRV said:
It's obviously edited to make Matt look bad. Like the part where Matt said this stuff is not clicking in his head, and the video cuts to the Philosopher rubbing his forehead in frustration. I'm not saying Matt wasn't having a hard time, and he made himself look bad; but this video was produced to make it look worse...
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Yes, I thought that as well.
 
Predestined said:
The Calvinist believes "But you don't get to decide if you want Jesus in your life or not. God has made the decision for you, from the beginning of time.
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And the pride of Arminians hates the fact that God is in control.
But the analogy is that the unconscious patient doesn't get to decide whether the surgeon is going to save His life or not.

Predestined said:
And there's nothing you can do about it. Jesus died only for the elected people, and the elected people will come to Him because He makes them come to Him. But the non-elected people are predestined to hell, for God's glory and purposes and good pleasure.
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That's what the Bible teaches, yes.

Predestined said:
In fact, God causes - not just allows, but causes - everything that happens, even sin and evil and unbelief and child abuse, for His glory, purposes, and good pleasure."
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We both agree that child abuse happens, sadly.

We believe God has a purpose in it.
You believe God allows it to happen, but for no purpose. You believe God values a rapist's "free will" more than he values the life and safety of innocent children. And that's seriously messed up.
 
Reformedguy said:
No answer huh? How does the Holy Spirit convict the unbeliever of sin? It can not be in the heart or mind because, like a good Pelagian, you deny the Spirits work prior to conversion is eternal.
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Stop dodging and changing the subject

You misused terms and misidentified my theology multiple times

and according to your own theology the unregenerate man cannot receive the things of the Spirit
so how is you now have him understanding by the spirit

your theology is self refuting
 
fltom said:
Stop dodging and changing the subject

You misused terms and misidentified my theology multiple times

and according to your own theology the unregenerate man cannot receive the things of the Spirit
so how is you now have him understanding by the spirit

your theology is self refuting
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Again, how does the Spirit convict the unbeliever if not in the heart or mind which are internal????
 
Reformedguy said:
Again, how does the Spirit convict the unbeliever if not in the heart or mind which are internal????
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don't run from your theology

the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit

that is your theology

why are you now contradicting yourself?
 
fltom said:
don't run from your theology

the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit

that is your theology

why are you now contradicting yourself?
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Yes Calvin was full of contradictions as was Augustine
 
fltom said:
don't run from your theology
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Sorry, this isn't the "Bash Calvinism" forum.
This is for discussing BOTH Arminianism and Calvinism.

So stop running away from YOUR beliefs.

You're just like the Mormons and Romanists in their forums.

The Mormons constantly attack Protestantism because they can't defend their own beliefs.
The Romanists constantly attack Protestantism because they can't defend their own beliefs.
You constantly attack Calvinism because you can't defend YOUR own beliefs.

So let's assume, for the moment, for the sake of argument, that Calvinism is false.
Why should we accept YOUR beliefs?
Why can't you defend them?
 
Theo1689 said:
Sorry, this isn't the "Bash Calvinism" forum.
This is for discussing BOTH Arminianism and Calvinism.

So stop running away from YOUR beliefs.

You're just like the Mormons and Romanists in their forums.

The Mormons constantly attack Protestantism because they can't defend their own beliefs.
The Romanists constantly attack Protestantism because they can't defend their own beliefs.
You constantly attack Calvinism because you can't defend YOUR own beliefs.

So let's assume, for the moment, for the sake of argument, that Calvinism is false.
Why should we accept YOUR beliefs?
Why can't you defend them?
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LOL

you are another one who ran

address the bibles use of especially

and address my questions and arguments based on John 12:47

I don't have a problem defending my views I have a problem getting you to interact

as you come up with all kind of reasons not to
 
Chalcedon said:
Yes Calvin was full of contradictions as was Augustine
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I know; it's terrible isn't it, I mean, imagine if a Christian taught one thing for four decades, then did an about-face and started to teach contradictory doctrines. What would future generations make of such contradictions?
 
David1701 said:
I know; it's terrible isn't it, I mean, imagine if a Christian taught one thing for four decades, then did an about-face and started to teach contradictory doctrines. What would future generations make of such contradictions?
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How about if Christians taught one thing for 400 years and then someone reverses himself and teaches the opposite of what he was taught
 
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