Believing on Christ is a evidence of being born again !

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
bait n switch as expected deal with who Isaiah saw and John says Isaiah saw- JESUS.

Yeah Isaiah saw Jesus of Nazareth. That's why John quotes Isaiah 53 in this passage.

At Isaiah 6:8-10, Isaiah saw the unbelieving Jews of John 12

John told you this but you weren't listening again.
 

civic

Well-known member
Yeah Isaiah saw Jesus of Nazareth. That's why John quotes Isaiah 53 in this passage.

At Isaiah 6:8-10, Isaiah saw the unbelieving Jews of John 12

John told you this but you weren't listening again.
Isaiah 6 is the one and only time Isaiah saw the Lord and John tells us Isaiah saw the Son and identifies Him as YHWH.

game, set and match.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I have seen all the flavors of unis for the past 20 years on CARM so I'm very well versed in what you heretics believe. In fact I can debate trins better than you can rofl.

You don't seem to think people can see your motives.

That's pretty deluded. Why do you do that to yourself?
 

civic

Well-known member
You don't seem to think people can see your motives.

That's pretty deluded. Why do you do that to yourself?
oh now you are clairvoyant as well, I figured you had another spirit in you .

do you read tea leaves and tarot cards as well ?

what about palms ?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
So you agree that they can hear...what is the problem? The scripture teaches they have no understanding like you.
I find it funny how you can claim I have no understanding when you were the one thinking other people thought the passage was saying people were physically death and could therefore not hear the words because of disability.

But carry on with your childish semantics. It becomes clearer as to who has no understanding as you go along.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Duh

Scripture is the revelation of the Spirit
No it is not.
The Spirit reveals the truth in scripture. Have you not read that the letter kills but that the Spirit gives life.

The Spirit of God gives revelation. You and others devoid of the Spirit can read scripture as much as you want and then post a wall of scripture you think supports your heresy. That is a tactic used by all false teachers who want to change the meaning of scripture like 2 Cor 2.
Scripture contains the required information for the Spirit of God to give revelation. That is what your cut and paste scriptures teach us.

As a false teacher you have to insist that you do not NEED God to give you revelation, you are capable of understanding it all devoid of the Spirit of God.

BTW, the gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation. People hear the gospel preached without reading the scripture (Read Acts 2) and they are convicted by God. Scripture is not the power of God unto salvation, otherwise everyone who ever read the Bible would be saved.

As it stands, you and atheists are in the same boat, both parties lean on their own understanding and miss the Spiritual completely, leaving you as corrupt as you were yesterday, and the day before.

So Duh, you can tell people to lean on their own understanding which you pretend to be revelation all you want. It does not make you any less of a false teacher.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Duh

Scripture is the revelation of the Spirit
No it is not.
The Spirit reveals the truth in scripture. Have you not read that the letter kills but that the Spirit gives life.

The Spirit of God gives revelation. You and others devoid of the Spirit can read scripture as much as you want and then post a wall of scripture you think supports your heresy. That is a tactic used by all false teachers who want to change the meaning of scripture like 2 Cor 2.
Scripture contains the required information for the Spirit of God to give revelation. That is what your cut and paste scriptures teach us.

As a false teacher you have to insist that you do not NEED God to give you revelation, you are capable of understanding it all devoid of the Spirit of God.

BTW, the gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation. People hear the gospel preached without reading the scripture (Read Acts 2) and they are convicted by God. Scripture is not the power of God unto salvation, otherwise everyone who ever read the Bible would be saved.

As it stands, you and atheists are in the same boat, both parties lean on their own understanding and miss the Spiritual completely, leaving you as corrupt as you were yesterday, and the day before.

So Duh, you can tell people to lean on their own understanding which you pretend to be revelation all you want. It does not make you any less of a false teacher.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Aside from which you did not answer the question where does scripture speak of receiving the Spirit previous to faith
I am talking about Spiritual revelation. Not already being sealed with the Spirit.

You false teachers always have to put your own spin on things. God revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, before Peter had the indwelling HS. So stop pretending differently.

There are scriptures that say you cannot receive Spiritual truth with your natural mind.
You pretend that it means something other than ALL spiritual truth. You pretend it means "special" spiritual truth.

Your false teaching is so obvious for all to see.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I am talking about Spiritual revelation. Not already being sealed with the Spirit.

You false teachers always have to put your own spin on things. God revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, before Peter had the indwelling HS. So stop pretending differently.

There are scriptures that say you cannot receive Spiritual truth with your natural mind.
You pretend that it means something other than ALL spiritual truth. You pretend it means "special" spiritual truth.

Your false teaching is so obvious for all to see.
Still you have not addressed a
I am talking about Spiritual revelation. Not already being sealed with the Spirit.

You false teachers always have to put your own spin on things. God revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, before Peter had the indwelling HS. So stop pretending differently.

There are scriptures that say you cannot receive Spiritual truth with your natural mind.
You pretend that it means something other than ALL spiritual truth. You pretend it means "special" spiritual truth.

Your false teaching is so obvious for all to see.
Still you have not addressed a single verse

This is so typical

You make claims you cannot backup

Youi have beliefs you cannot find in the bible

Faith precedes righteousness, justification, life, salvation, eternal life, receiving the Spirit, regeneration

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).


Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”


Galatians 3:2, 5

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”


2 Corinthians 3:14-16

“But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…anyone turns to the Lord…” (by faith)
“…the veil is taken away.”


1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”


Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”


Edited

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

“…being born again…”
“…by the word of God…”


1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

“…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”


Titus 3:5 (KJV)

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

Salvation through regeneration and thus

The washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit are the means of salvation so



1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9

All show faith is before regeneration


Eph. 2:5 —KJV

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Quickening being made alive equated with salvation so

John 20:31 —KJV

“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Shows faith precedes regeneration as do

1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I am talking about Spiritual revelation. Not already being sealed with the Spirit.

This is scripture

It extolls the function of the Holy Spirit in relation to the unbeliever (world) under the new covenant

John 16:8 (KJV)
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

where is yours ?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Still you have not addressed a single verse

This is so typical

You make claims you cannot backup
It is not my or anyone else's fault that you have both reading and understanding problems.

If you were able to man up and actually take the time to read what I wrote you might have a better response than me not addressing a single verse as I clearly did.

So no, your "typical" comment does not hold water at all.

False teachers like you have to run to your default mode (playing dumb) in order to avoid actual conversation.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
This is scripture

It extolls the function of the Holy Spirit in relation to the unbeliever (world) under the new covenant

John 16:8 (KJV)
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

where is yours ?
Your aim is nothing more than to try and pit scripture against scripture:

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Hear and believe.
Now you have to explain how you hear and believe without revelation from God.

BTW, if you are not able to discern when someone uses scripture in conversation, it does not mean they are not.
Do you want me to site specifically where Peter was told that it was through revelation from God that he knew Jesus was the Christ and not because of a "general" revelation that he knew.

As for you thinking that the Spirit is ineffective in reproving the world then you would obviously be wrong.
He does not reprove the world that they are lost without Christ without them hearing the gospel.
So what does he reprove the world of:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

It is typical though of false teachers to try and force their own agenda's down other's throats.
Your teaching of a general revelation that let's the world know Jesus is the Christ and that salvation is only through Him, does not hold water.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Your aim is nothing more than to try and pit scripture against scripture:
LOL
Your aim is nothing more than to try and pit scripture against scripture:

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Hear and believe.
Now you have to explain how you hear and believe without revelation from God.

BTW, if you are not able to discern when someone uses scripture in conversation, it does not mean they are not.
Do you want me to site specifically where Peter was told that it was through revelation from God that he knew Jesus was the Christ and not because of a "general" revelation that he knew.

As for you thinking that the Spirit is ineffective in reproving the world then you would obviously be wrong.
He does not reprove the world that they are lost without Christ without them hearing the gospel.
So what does he reprove the world of:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

It is typical though of false teachers to try and force their own agenda's down other's throats.
Your teaching of a general revelation that let's the world know Jesus is the Christ and that salvation is only through Him, does not hold water.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith.
LOL rather you have no knowledge of the analogy of faith\\No idea on how to compare scripture with scripture

And as for the gospel you don't believe anyone can understand it

but the verse you quote makes it powerful for those that believe

obviously they must have understood it







Hear and believe

And who is extolling the gospel


Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Romans 10:10-15 (KJV)
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1 Corinthians 15:1-11 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 1:6-7 (KJV)
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 4:39 (KJV)
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

you are desperate need for some biblical training
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I find it funny how you can claim I have no understanding when you were the one thinking other people thought the passage was saying people were physically death and could therefore not hear the words because of disability.
I never said that did I? Then you are the one misunderstanding my words.
But carry on with your childish semantics. It becomes clearer as to who has no understanding as you go along.
You just proved that you have no understanding...Are you a mind reader, how do you know what I am thinking? I never said I know other people's thoughts...
 
T

TomFL

Guest
LOL

LOL rather you have no knowledge of the analogy of faith\\No idea on how to compare scripture with scripture

And as for the gospel you don't believe anyone can understand it

but the verse you quote makes it powerful for those that believe

obviously they must have understood it








Hear and believe

And who is extolling the gospel


Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Romans 10:10-15 (KJV)
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1 Corinthians 15:1-11 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 1:6-7 (KJV)
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 4:39 (KJV)
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

you are in desperate need for some biblical training

bump for Manfred
 
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