Bergoglio says; Proselytism is pagan, not Christian, the worst sin possible.

[Mysterium Fidei]

Early on in Mr. Bergoglio's fake "pontificate" he made it very clear that he despises the idea of "proselytism"; that is, trying to convert others to Catholicism by means of arguments about the truth of the Catholic Faith.

In the past he has stated that proselytism is "solemn nonsense" or is a "great sin against ecumenism."

Recently Bergoglio clarified exactly what kind of "great sin" attempting to convert someone to the Catholic Church is. He gave a "catechetical" lecture in which he stated: "Do not forget this: when you see Christians proselytizing, making a list of people to come... these are not Christians; they are pagans disguised as Christians, but the heart is pagan."

Bergoglio also just said in an interview with a Spanish-language publication Mundo Negro, conducted on Dec. 15, 2022, that proselytism is "the worst sin a missionary could possibly commit!"

Imagine, Bergoglio believes that trying to convert someone to Catholicism is the WORST SIN a MISSIONARY could possibly commit. It's worse than murder, abortion, pedophilia, or even the denial of God (something Bergoglio has experience at).

So the Catholic can junk their apologetics collection according to the fake "pope." The writings of the saints and doctors, of learned priests, bishops, and cardinals over two millennia, none of that matters anymore. The “Popes” since Vatican II know that evangelization must appeal entirely on the emotion and not at all to the intellect. After all, Faith is not an assent of the mind but an “encounter" according to Bergoglio.

 

[RiJoRi]

Wow. Just wow. I think we are seeing the RCC becoming the Church of the World more and more. Sad.

--Rich

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Vatican II created a new, man centered, humanist, religiously indifferent religion, and Bergoglio is just the latest manifestation of this new religion. To Bergoglio the "diversity of religions" are a good thing, because he doesn't believe that there is one true religion. If you are Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or a Voodoo witch doctor, it doesn't matter to him. One is just as good as another.

 

[LifeIn]

... he despises the idea of "proselytism"; that is, trying to convert others to Catholicism by means of arguments about the truth of the Catholic Faith.

As usual, M.F. has got it wrong. The meaning of proselytism in the context of Pope Francis's talk was the perjorative one where "conversion" is involuntary or coerced. For one thing, that sort of evangelization just doesn't work, and makes more enemies of the faith than friends. What does work is living the life of the Gospel so that all can see and are attracted to the Christian faith. When approached in that manner, the believer should then be ready to share the truths of the faith to open and questing hearts. That is how the faith grew under Roman domination in the first couple of centuries. The faith does not grow by believers going door-to-door and berating the people who did not ask to talk with them. That is the ugly side of proselytism that Pope Francis is talking about, and he is right. Good Christians don't do that. Note: this is very different from sharing with a friend the source of your joy in Jesus. When done with love, that is not proselytism. That is evangelization. What we see in the OP is M.F. distorting the meaning of the Pope's message so that the message (and the Pope himself) can be denigrated.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

As usual, M.F. has got it wrong. The meaning of proselytism in the context of Pope Francis's talk was the perjorative one where "conversion" is involuntary or coerced. For one thing, that sort of evangelization just doesn't work, and makes more enemies of the faith than friends. What does work is living the life of the Gospel so that all can see and are attracted to the Christian faith. When approached in that manner, the believer should then be ready to share the truths of the faith to open and questing hearts. That is how the faith grew under Roman domination in the first couple of centuries. The faith does not grow by believers going door-to-door and berating the people who did not ask to talk with them. That is the ugly side of proselytism that Pope Francis is talking about, and he is right. Good Christians don't do that. Note: this is very different from sharing with a friend the source of your joy in Jesus. When done with love, that is not proselytism. That is evangelization. What we see in the OP is M.F. distorting the meaning of the Pope's message so that the message (and the Pope himself) can be denigrated.

You've got it wrong, as usual. The meaning of "proselytize" is not to force someone to covert involuntarily. Where has Bergoglio ever said that in any of his many pronouncements against the grave "sin" of proselytism? Please show me where he's talking about proselytism in the sense of forced or involuntary conversion.

The Catholic Church has never condoned the forced or involuntary conversion of anyone. Proselytize simply means to persuade someone to one's own religious or political belief through apologetics, in other words evangelization.

Bergoglio has time and time again told people NOT to convert to the Catholic Faith, because he is a religious indifferentist. He told this to an Anglican "Bp.", Tony Palmer, who shortly after died in a motorcycle accident, and was buried as a Catholic bishop according to Bergoglio.

I am a convert from Protestantism. My Confirmation saint is St. Fransis de Sales. I chose him because of his zeal in proselytizing to Protestants and his miraculous success in converting thousands of Protestants to return to the Catholic Faith. To Bergoglio, this is a grave mortal sin.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Early on in Mr. Bergoglio's fake "pontificate" he made it very clear that he despises the idea of "proselytism"; that is, trying to convert others to Catholicism by means of arguments about the truth of the Catholic Faith.

Since our Faith is a person, you cannot "argue" someone into the Faith. They have to encounter the person of Christ and have a relationship with Christ first and foremost. Our religion is not a doctrine, it is a person.

That being said, I think Pope Francis has in mind the Bible Thumper type. I do not think the pope literally means to suggest that we should not attempt to defend our Faith when it comes under attack.

Think of the Bible Thumpers on this site. Do they really make Protestantism look attractive? Not really. You think we should attempt to evangelize people using their type of tactics? If so, go right ahead, but I do not think that is the best way.

In the past he has stated that proselytism is "solemn nonsense" or is a "great sin against ecumenism."

Again, what does Pope Francis have in mind here? Does he mean we should not defend our Faith? I think not. I think he has in mind the Protestant fundamentalist--and he is saying to Catholics "Don't be like that."

You in my opinion are the Catholic equivalent to the Protestant fundamentalist.

Recently Bergoglio clarified exactly what kind of "great sin" attempting to convert someone to the Catholic Church is. He gave a "catechetical" lecture in which he stated: "Do not forget this: when you see Christians proselytizing, making a list of people to come... these are not Christians; they are pagans disguised as Christians, but the heart is pagan."

Again, I think the Pope has in mind the Protestant fundamentalist type.

Imagine, Bergoglio believes that trying to convert someone to Catholicism is the WORST SIN a MISSIONARY could possibly commit. It's worse than murder, abortion, pedophilia, or even the denial of God (something Bergoglio has experience at).

You know full well that I am no cheerleader for Pope Francis. As much as I think Pope Francis has been a disaster for the Church--at the same time, I am not intentionally going to twist his words.

So the Catholic can junk their apologetics collection according to the fake "pope." The writings of the saints and doctors, of learned priests, bishops, and cardinals over two millennia, none of that matters anymore. The “Popes” since Vatican II know that evangelization must appeal entirely on the emotion and not at all to the intellect. After all, Faith is not an assent of the mind but an “encounter" according to Bergoglio.

No. Again, I think the pope is telling Catholics not to be like Protestant fundamentalists in their evangelical outreach. Protestant fundamentalists know only how to condemn, judge, and otherwise criticize. They think rote memorization of a bunch of Bible verses means that they know the Bible. That is not the way to evangelize.

The above sounds like a certain Catholic poster I know--who does the same thing but as a Catholic. The person seems to think that rote memorization of a bunch of quotes from popes, saints, doctors of the Church, councils, etc, and an ability to cut and paste means a knowledge of what is being quoted. The poster seems to know only how to condemn, judge, and criticize. I wonder what the person would do without Mr. Google.

 

[LifeIn]

My Confirmation saint is St. Fransis de Sales. I chose him because of his zeal in proselytizing to Protestants and his miraculous success in converting thousands of Protestants to return to the Catholic Faith.

Then you probably know that today is the Memorial of St. Francis de Sales, Bishop and Doctor of the Church. And you probably follow his wisdom. Here are few of his sayings for you to meditate on:

"Take it as a certain sign that your charity is not genuine if your words, no matter how true, are not charitable."

"One kind word wins more willing service than a hundred harsh orders or stern reproofs."

"To what purpose should we trouble ourselves as to whether it is better to hear mass in one church rather than in another, to spin rather than sew,
or to gives alms to a man rather than to a woman? It is not giving good service to a master to spend as much time thinking about what is to be done as in doing it."

"It is quite enough to receive the evils which do come upon us from time to time without anticipating them by imagination."

"Just as humility perfects us with respect to God gentleness perfects us with respect to our neighbor."

"Let us walk on the way with our brothers and sisters gently, peacefully and amiably."

"When we discover that our lute is out of tune we must neither break the strings nor throw the instrument aside."

"When you encounter difficulties and contradictions do not try to break them, but bend them with gentleness and time."

"The business of finding fault is very easy; the business of doing better, very difficult."

"Whatever we see our neighbor do we must strive to interpret it in the best manner possible."

"Overzealousness is the mother of all imperfections."

"Do not sow a crop of good intentions in your neighbor's garden but cultivate your own with diligence."

"Perfection does not lie in avoiding the world, but in not clinging to it."

"You must choose: is it better that there should be thorns in your garden in order to have roses, or that there should be no roses in your garden in order to have no thorns?

This sounds a lot more like the approach of Pope Francis, who has been a great admirer of Francis de Sales, and has written in praise of this Doctor of the Church. I think you and Pope Francis take the same inspiration.

 

[Kirby]

Early on in Mr. Bergoglio's fake "pontificate" he made it very clear that he despises the idea of "proselytism"; that is, trying to convert others to Catholicism by means of arguments about the truth of the Catholic Faith.

In the past he has stated that proselytism is "solemn nonsense" or is a "great sin against ecumenism."

Recently Bergoglio clarified exactly what kind of "great sin" attempting to convert someone to the Catholic Church is. He gave a "catechetical" lecture in which he stated: "Do not forget this: when you see Christians proselytizing, making a list of people to come... these are not Christians; they are pagans disguised as Christians, but the heart is pagan."

Bergoglio also just said in an interview with a Spanish-language publication Mundo Negro, conducted on Dec. 15, 2022, that proselytism is "the worst sin a missionary could possibly commit!"

Imagine, Bergoglio believes that trying to convert someone to Catholicism is the WORST SIN a MISSIONARY could possibly commit. It's worse than murder, abortion, pedophilia, or even the denial of God (something Bergoglio has experience at).

So the Catholic can junk their apologetics collection according to the fake "pope." The writings of the saints and doctors, of learned priests, bishops, and cardinals over two millennia, none of that matters anymore. The “Popes” since Vatican II know that evangelization must appeal entirely on the emotion and not at all to the intellect. After all, Faith is not an assent of the mind but an “encounter" according to Bergoglio.

Proselytizing is done for the sake of the proselytizer. Leading a person to conversion is done for the sake of the other person.

 

[balshan]

We can see how united RCs are.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Then you probably know that today is the Memorial of St. Francis de Sales, Bishop and Doctor of the Church. And you probably follow his wisdom. Here are few of his sayings for you to meditate on:

"Take it as a certain sign that your charity is not genuine if your words, no matter how true, are not charitable."

"One kind word wins more willing service than a hundred harsh orders or stern reproofs."

"To what purpose should we trouble ourselves as to whether it is better to hear mass in one church rather than in another, to spin rather than sew,
or to gives alms to a man rather than to a woman? It is not giving good service to a master to spend as much time thinking about what is to be done as in doing it."

"It is quite enough to receive the evils which do come upon us from time to time without anticipating them by imagination."

"Just as humility perfects us with respect to God gentleness perfects us with respect to our neighbor."

"Let us walk on the way with our brothers and sisters gently, peacefully and amiably."

"When we discover that our lute is out of tune we must neither break the strings nor throw the instrument aside."

"When you encounter difficulties and contradictions do not try to break them, but bend them with gentleness and time."

"The business of finding fault is very easy; the business of doing better, very difficult."

"Whatever we see our neighbor do we must strive to interpret it in the best manner possible."

"Overzealousness is the mother of all imperfections."

"Do not sow a crop of good intentions in your neighbor's garden but cultivate your own with diligence."

"Perfection does not lie in avoiding the world, but in not clinging to it."

"You must choose: is it better that there should be thorns in your garden in order to have roses, or that there should be no roses in your garden in order to have no thorns?

This sounds a lot more like the approach of Pope Francis, who has been a great admirer of Francis de Sales, and has written in praise of this Doctor of the Church. I think you and Pope Francis take the same inspiration.

Today is the feast of St. Francis de Sales. He was made the Bishop of Geneva when it was a Calvinist stronghold. Despite many threats and attempts on his life, by the intensity of his charity, he converted 72,000 heretics back to the Holy Catholic Church. It is said that Geneva did not have 100 Catholics in it before St. Francis came there, and by the time he was through it didn't have 100 Calvinists.

To your fake, apostate "pope", St. Francis is a great sinner. Bergoglio doesn't believe in conversion to the Catholic Church, because he doesn't believe in the Catholic Church. He has told people over and over to NOT convert to the Catholic Church.

He is a humanist, a naturalist and a religious indifferentist. He doesn't believe the Catholic Church, or any other religion for that matter, is the true religion because he doesn't believe there is a true religion.

 

[LifeIn]

Today is the feast of St. Francis de Sales. He was made the Bishop of Geneva when it was a Calvinist stronghold. Despite many threats and attempts on his life, by the intensity of his charity, he converted 72,000 heretics back to the Holy Catholic Church. It is said that Geneva did not have 100 Catholics in it before St. Francis came there, and by the time he was through it didn't have 100 Calvinists.

To your fake, apostate "pope", St. Francis is a great sinner. Bergoglio doesn't believe in conversion to the Catholic Church, because he doesn't believe in the Catholic Church. He has told people over and over to NOT convert to the Catholic Church.

He is a humanist, a naturalist and a religious indifferentist. He doesn't believe the Catholic Church, or any other religion for that matter, is the true religion because he doesn't believe there is a true religion.

So, I see you could not rise to the challenge of considering the quotes from the wisdom of your confirmation saint, but simply ignored them and went right back to your rant against Pope Francis. But since you raised the issue of conversions, you can see from the words of St. Francis de Sales that his approach to affecting conversions to the Catholic faith was nothing at all like what you are doing, which calls into question the sincerity of your admiration of Francis de Sales. If his approach was consistent with his sayings, that approach to affecting conversions was much more similar to the approach of Pope Francis, who also desired Evangelization, as we see from other writings of his. That approach is not by brow-beating people into becoming Catholic, which is what Pope Francis detests. Rather it was by living a life full of the joy of the truth so that all can see and stir in them a desire for the truth that is found in the Church. That is likely how Francis de Sales caused the Calvinists of Geneva to become Catholic. The Calvinists got no joy from being Calvinists, but they witnessed the joy that Francis de Sales shown as he talked about his faith. This is not the proselytizing the Pope Francis has criticized. So once again I challenge you to take each of the quotes of Francis de Sales above and tell how you do or do not follow them. (In retrospect, perhaps you should not have admitted your admiration for Francis de Sales, because now you have to live up to your stated admiration, or admit that you didn't really mean it.)

 

[balshan]

It is so nice to see how ununited RCs are. It proves their claims of unity are just a mirage.

 

[LifeIn]

It is so nice to see how ununited RCs are. It proves their claims of unity are just a mirage.

Don't be deceived by dissidents who claim to be the "true" Catholic while denying the completeness of the tenants of the faith. It is not very different from overtly non-Catholic Christians who claim to belong to the "real" Christian Church while denying the legitimacy of Catholicism. I could just as easily point to Jim Jones and David Koresh as examples of disunity in the non-Catholic world, and you would rightly object that Jim Jones and David Koresh were not real Christians, even though they claimed to be. You and M.S. have a lot in common.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

So, I see you could not rise to the challenge of considering the quotes from the wisdom of your confirmation saint, but simply ignored them and went right back to your rant against Pope Francis. But since you raised the issue of conversions, you can see from the words of St. Francis de Sales that his approach to affecting conversions to the Catholic faith was nothing at all like what you are doing, which calls into question the sincerity of your admiration of Francis de Sales. If his approach was consistent with his sayings, that approach to affecting conversions was much more similar to the approach of Pope Francis, who also desired Evangelization, as we see from other writings of his. That approach is not by brow-beating people into becoming Catholic, which is what Pope Francis detests. Rather it was by living a life full of the joy of the truth so that all can see and stir in them a desire for the truth that is found in the Church. That is likely how Francis de Sales caused the Calvinists of Geneva to become Catholic. The Calvinists got no joy from being Calvinists, but they witnessed the joy that Francis de Sales shown as he talked about his faith. This is not the proselytizing the Pope Francis has criticized. So once again I challenge you to take each of the quotes of Francis de Sales above and tell how you do or do not follow them. (In retrospect, perhaps you should not have admitted your admiration for Francis de Sales, because now you have to live up to your stated admiration, or admit that you didn't really mean it.)

You must be one of the last true believers. Bergoglio is not trying to "evangelize" to anyone. He has told people NOT to convert to his Novus Ordo sect. He has explicitly, on multiple occasions, stated that the "diversity" of religions is an "enrichment" or a "benefit" to mankind and that they are willed by God. He denies that there exists any true religion.

Perhaps what St. Fransis de Sales should have done would be to go out among the Calvinists with a statue of a wooden Amazonian fertility goddess and placed in the center of a circular tapestry and then offer it incense, candles, food and other items as a sacrifice. Then he and the Calvinists would all prostrate before the idol and pray to it.

I'm sure that would have been much more effective. Can you tell me where in the liturgical calendar the feast of Pachamama is? For some strange reason, I can't find it in my missal.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Don't be deceived by dissidents who claim to be the "true" Catholic while denying the completeness of the tenants of the faith. It is not very different from overtly non-Catholic Christians who claim to belong to the "real" Christian Church while denying the legitimacy of Catholicism. I could just as easily point to Jim Jones and David Koresh as examples of disunity in the non-Catholic world, and you would rightly object that Jim Jones and David Koresh were not real Christians, even though they claimed to be. You and M.S. have a lot in common.

How can you say something like this to your brethren Protestant? Your religiously indifferent "pope" would not approve. It's not very ecumenical of you. You know that their sects are now a "means of salvation."

Can you tell me if this piece of magisterium is part of the "completeness of the tenants of the faith"?

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.”

Do you give your assent to this statement?

 

[LifeIn]

Bergoglio is not trying to "evangelize" to anyone.

Perhaps you missed Pope Francis' 2013 Encyclical, Evangelii Gaudium. You should read the whole thing from beginning to end to get a full appreciation of Pope Francis' zeal for evangelization, but in it you will find, for example:

In first place, we can mention the area of ordinary pastoral ministry, which is “animated by the fire of the Spirit, so as to inflame the hearts of the faithful who regularly take part in community worship and gather on the Lord’s day to be nourished by his word and by the bread of eternal life”.[11] In this category we can also include those members of faithful who preserve a deep and sincere faith, expressing it in different ways, but seldom taking part in worship. Ordinary pastoral ministry seeks to help believers to grow spiritually so that they can respond to God’s love ever more fully in their lives.

A second area is that of “the baptized whose lives do not reflect the demands of Baptism”,[12] who lack a meaningful relationship to the Church and no longer experience the consolation born of faith. The Church, in her maternal concern, tries to help them experience a conversion which will restore the joy of faith to their hearts and inspire a commitment to the Gospel.

Lastly, we cannot forget that evangelization is first and foremost about preaching the Gospel to those who do not know Jesus Christ or who have always rejected him. Many of them are quietly seeking God, led by a yearning to see his face, even in countries of ancient Christian tradition. All of them have a right to receive the Gospel. Christians have the duty to proclaim the Gospel without excluding anyone. Instead of seeming to impose new obligations, they should appear as people who wish to share their joy, who point to a horizon of beauty and who invite others to a delicious banquet. It is not by proselytizing that the Church grows, but “by attraction”.[13]

Do you give assent to this Encyclical, which is every bit as authoritative and the Encyclical you cite below?

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.”

Do you give your assent to this statement?

I do, and so does Pope Francis, as he has never recommended that non-Catholics be given Holy Communion until they have converted.

 

[RiJoRi]

You must be one of the last true believers. Bergoglio is not trying to "evangelize" to anyone. He has told people NOT to convert to his Novus Ordo sect. He has explicitly, on multiple occasions, stated that the "diversity" of religions is an "enrichment" or a "benefit" to mankind and that they are willed by God. He denies that there exists any true religion.

? Then rationally, he should not object to sedevacantists, should he?

Perhaps what St. Fransis de Sales should have done would be to go out among the Calvinists with a statue of a wooden Amazonian fertility goddess and placed in the center of a circular tapestry and then offer it incense, candles, food and other items as a sacrifice. Then he and the Calvinists would all prostrate before the idol and pray to it.

? The Calvinists would have gotten out their hotdogs and marshmallows, I am sure!

I'm sure that would have been much more effective. Can you tell me where in the liturgical calendar the feast of Pachamama is? For some strange reason, I can't find it in my missal.

Just wait... ?

--Rich

 

[balshan]

Don't be deceived by dissidents who claim to be the "true" Catholic while denying the completeness of the tenants of the faith. It is not very different from overtly non-Catholic Christians who claim to belong to the "real" Christian Church while denying the legitimacy of Catholicism. I could just as easily point to Jim Jones and David Koresh as examples of disunity in the non-Catholic world, and you would rightly object that Jim Jones and David Koresh were not real Christians, even though they claimed to be. You and M.S. have a lot in common.

I am not deceived at all, the fact you call other RCs (and MF is reveals what was which I grew up with until Vat 11) dissidents reveals how ununited the RC really is. Just for clarity I was in the RC school system when Vat 11 happened. The comparing MF and others with Jim Jones shows how RC do not love their neighbours and is not the same thing at all. You and MF have a lot in common who is MS. Feeling the love from you. Mf is the old RC before the changes.

 

[balshan]

How can you say something like this to your brethren Protestant? Your religiously indifferent "pope" would not approve. It's not very ecumenical of you. You know that their sects are now a "means of salvation."

Can you tell me if this piece of magisterium is part of the "completeness of the tenants of the faith"?

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.”

Do you give your assent to this statement?

MF i would never insult you like you just did to me.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

? Then rationally, he should not object to sedevacantists, should he?

Yes he should. They seem to miss that point. He calls me a "dissident", which his "pope" would never call anyone, other than a traditionalist. The only religion Bergoglio does not accept and is hostile to is Catholicism.

? The Calvinists would have gotten out their hotdogs and marshmallows, I am sure!

Just wait... ?

--Rich

They certainly would.