Biden and Trump on Declassification - just for absolute clarity

[Authentic Nouveau]

Kash Patel is a Trump loyalist and is not therefore an unbiased source.

There is no evidence that Trump declassified anything. No one in his administration has said they were aware of him doing this, and no one in the federal govt working on issues dealt with in those documents was made aware that they were declassified.

And yes, Biden as VP did not have the power to declassify documents, but he certainly has that power now.

Also, the search warrant executed at Mar-a-lago turned up many classified documents, vindicating the decision to search that site. Furthermore, the results of that search should have resulted in searches of other Trump properties, just as Biden's properties have all been searched.

Finally, Trump has been noncooperative if not obstructionist when the Archives and then the DOJ tried to get documents returned. Trump dragged his feet, returned a few things and did not allow agents to search his storage areas.

Also, early stories on this reported that Trump often ripped up govt documents, and that his aides taped them back together. The Archives received some taped together pages and some documents in fragments. Few recent stories on this issue point out this fact which points to a complete disregard for rules regarding document preservation.

Looks like Hunter Biden benefits from garageGate

 

[vibise]

Which is irrelevant because they don't need to witness it. It takes no process so there's really nothing to witness. There is however evidence that he did. It crystallized in the fact that he ordered the classification markings removed which Kash Patel has testified to. But even if there was no eyewitness to that instruction that still wouldn't mean they weren't declassified. I don't think you comprehend what "no process" means.

Marking something "declassified" is a process. No processes required.

Kash Patel was in Donald Trump's presence when he ordered the documents be declassified.

They can treat them like their invaders from Mars as far as I'm concerned.

I acknowledged him as president up to the point where we knew that he was a felon during the 2020 election and you and your fellow travelers have made it abundantly clear that that makes him disqualified to be president.

Problem is, your predicate was false.

Nancy Pelosi was not just some citizen who is handed the equivalent of a little paper flag to wave. Nancy Pelosi was speaker of the house performing her official duty as a speaker of the house to preside at the state of the union address and therefore all of the government accoutrements made available to her like the speech she was issued belong to the United States of America. What she tore in half was the copy of the State of the Union Address that belong to the Speaker of the House, which we now know she was not to hold that office into perpetuity. That was a temporary office she no longer holds. That she destroyed a document belonging to the national archives. Their refusal to claim that document is entirely beside the point. Simply one more example of a double standard.

If the classification markings had been removed, then why are they still there?

The fact is that if Trump's lawyers trusted his word, they would have been willing to attest that he turned over all classified documents, which they would not do, and they would be willing to attest that he declassified documents, which they are not doing.

If he declassified documents, there should be a list and a date and notification to the relevant agencies. Where are those things.

As I pointed out, Patel, who goes by Ka$h Patel, is not a reliable source.

Yes, Trump was clearly engaged in illegal acts in the 2020 election and is therefore a felon. Glad we agree on that.

Pelosi destroyed a copy of the speech that others in the room had. The important copy that needed to the archived was the one in Trump's hand.

And you do know that in the boxes of stuff that Trump turned over were many ripped up documents, some of which he aides tried to tape together.

Some Trump White House records were torn up and taped back together, National Archives says

CNN and the Washington Post reported some documents the Archives turned over to the January 6 select committee had been torn up and reassembled.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Thistle]

If the classification markings had been removed, then why are they still there?

I'm having a very hard time understanding why this is impossible for you to comprehend. The president declassifies "with no process." What prevents you from understanding that? If the president declassifies "with no process" then classification markings are completely irrelevant to the president.

The fact is that if Trump's lawyers trusted his word, they would have . . .

No, you are not authorized to place your inferences into the minds of anybody else on planet earth least of all Trump's attorneys.

If he declassified documents, there should be a list and a date and notification to the relevant agencies.

What a galactically stupid comment. "With no process" includes compiling lists and dates and so on.

Where are those things.

"With no process" means that there's no reason to believe, nor any expectation whatsoever, for those things to exist.

As I pointed out, Patel, who goes by Ka$h Patel, is not a reliable source.

And I have every reason to believe if he knew about this post you've written here, he think you're a blithering idiot. What are we supposed to take from that? At very least you two aren't BFFs.

Yes, Trump was clearly engaged in illegal acts in the 2020 election and is therefore a felon.

He clearly was not in the assertion that he was is extremely stupid.

Glad we agree on that.

?

Pelosi destroyed a copy of the speech that others in the room had.

And those other people were not the Speaker of the House. None of those other people had the sSeaker of the House's copy of that state of the union address. The Speaker of the House's copy of the state of the union address is historic because it belong to the person occupy in the office of Speaker of the House.

The important copy that needed to the archived was the one in Trump's hand.

Because the Speaker of the House is trivial in the relevant? I don't think so. In fact, how do you know that Speaker McCarthy is not looking for that very document right now. I would rather suspect he would prefer having the speech taped back together over having every vestige of it disappeared as evidence.

And you do know that in the boxes of stuff that Trump turned over were many ripped up documents, some of which he aides tried to tape together.

Are you aware that the president has virtually unlimited power to designate paperwork as his personal paperwork? We know of those for an absolute fact, because of FOIA requests that were filed for paperwork belonging to Bill Clinton which were denied for that very reason. Bill simply said that's personal get lost and that was the end of the FOIA request.

 

[glenlogie]

Kash Patel is a Trump loyalist and is not therefore an unbiased source.

There is no evidence that Trump declassified anything. No one in his administration has said they were aware of him doing this, and no one in the federal govt working on issues dealt with in those documents was made aware that they were declassified.

And yes, Biden as VP did not have the power to declassify documents, but he certainly has that power now.

Also, the search warrant executed at Mar-a-lago turned up many classified documents, vindicating the decision to search that site. Furthermore, the results of that search should have resulted in searches of other Trump properties, just as Biden's properties have all been searched.

Finally, Trump has been noncooperative if not obstructionist when the Archives and then the DOJ tried to get documents returned. Trump dragged his feet, returned a few things and did not allow agents to search his storage areas.

Also, early stories on this reported that Trump often ripped up govt documents, and that his aides taped them back together. The Archives received some taped together pages and some documents in fragments. Few recent stories on this issue point out this fact which points to a complete disregard for rules regarding document preservation.

In the world of Vibise anyone who supports Biden is automatically an unbiased source.

 

[vibise]

I'm having a very hard time understanding why this is impossible for you to comprehend. The president declassifies "with no process." What prevents you from understanding that? If the president declassifies "with no process" then classification markings are completely irrelevant to the president.

No, you are not authorized to place your inferences into the minds of anybody else on planet earth least of all Trump's attorneys.

What a galactically stupid comment. "With no process" includes compiling lists and dates and so on.

"With no process" means that there's no reason to believe, nor any expectation whatsoever, for those things to exist.

And I have every reason to believe if he knew about this post you've written here, he think you're a blithering idiot. What are we supposed to take from that? At very least you two aren't BFFs.

He clearly was not in the assertion that he was is extremely stupid.

?

And those other people were not the Speaker of the House. None of those other people had the sSeaker of the House's copy of that state of the union address. The Speaker of the House's copy of the state of the union address is historic because it belong to the person occupy in the office of Speaker of the House.

Because the Speaker of the House is trivial in the relevant? I don't think so. In fact, how do you know that Speaker McCarthy is not looking for that very document right now. I would rather suspect he would prefer having the speech taped back together over having every vestige of it disappeared as evidence.

Are you aware that the president has virtually unlimited power to designate paperwork as his personal paperwork? We know of those for an absolute fact, because of FOIA requests that were filed for paperwork belonging to Bill Clinton which were denied for that very reason. Bill simply said that's personal get lost and that was the end of the FOIA request.

The markings are still relevant to the rest of the govt especially the agencies responsible for recommending those classifications.
If those agencies do not know that Trump unilaterally used his mind to declassify documents, what then? Those agencies will continue to treat those documents as classified as though Trump did nothing. If he declassified anything, isn't it his responsibility to notify the relevant people and agencies?

I can see what Trump's lawyers did and did not do or say (and so can you), which was the basis of my statement. None of them have stated definitively that Trump declassified documents.

Has the Archives complained that Pelosi ripped Trump's speech in two? If what she did is illegal, what about the documents Trump routinely ripped to shreds and that were handed over to Archives in that condition? Should Trump be charged with destruction of govt documents? And who thinks a ripped up copy of a speech is evidence of something besides you?

I note you provide no details on the FOIA requests for Clinton's paperwork. There should indeed be some things that the POTUS can declare as personal, but that should not include anything previously or currently marked classified or other documents needed for the Presidential record.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

If the classification markings had been removed, then why are they still there?

You don't understand declassification

The fact is that if Trump's lawyers trusted his word, they would have been willing to attest that he turned over all classified documents, which they would not do, and they would be willing to attest that he declassified documents, which they are not doing.

Opinion

If he declassified documents, there should be a list and a date and notification to the relevant agencies. Where are those things.

Should be according to @vibise? lol

As I pointed out, Patel, who goes by Ka$h Patel, is not a reliable source.

More reliable than you and your fake news channels

Yes, Trump was clearly engaged in illegal acts in the 2020 election and is therefore a felon.

False accusation.

Glad we agree on that.

You made that up.

Pelosi destroyed a copy of the speech that others in the room had.

A crime by a psycho

he important copy that needed to the archived was the one in Trump's hand.

And you do know that in the boxes of stuff that Trump turned over were many ripped up documents, some of which he aides tried to tape together.

Unproven hype

Some Trump White House records were torn up and taped back together, National Archives says

CNN and the Washington Post reported some documents the Archives turned over to the January 6 select committee had been torn up and reassembled.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Eightcrackers]

The only thing that my post above says that Donald Trump did was declassify the documents. With respect to Kash Patel I didn't say that Donald Trump did anything.

You said that Patel witnessed Trump declassifying.

 

[BMS]

The markings are still relevant to the rest of the govt especially the agencies responsible for recommending those classifications.
If those agencies do not know that Trump unilaterally used his mind to declassify documents, what then? Those agencies will continue to treat those documents as classified as though Trump did nothing. If he declassified anything, isn't it his responsibility to notify the relevant people and agencies?

I can see what Trump's lawyers did and did not do or say (and so can you), which was the basis of my statement. None of them have stated definitively that Trump declassified documents.

Has the Archives complained that Pelosi ripped Trump's speech in two? If what she did is illegal, what about the documents Trump routinely ripped to shreds and that were handed over to Archives in that condition? Should Trump be charged with destruction of govt documents? And who thinks a ripped up copy of a speech is evidence of something besides you?

I note you provide no details on the FOIA requests for Clinton's paperwork. There should indeed be some things that the POTUS can declare as personal, but that should not include anything previously or currently marked classified or other documents needed for the Presidential record.

Were the documents classified cis or trans ?

 

[Thistle]

You said that Patel witnessed Trump declassifying.

The president can declassify "with no process." Which means to witness him declassifying involves hearing him say that something is declassified. There's no process so whatever the president says is the fact of classification. Actually even that is not required. The president could simply treat something as though it's not classified and as a result it's not classified. So I suppose there are two alternative examples of how someone could witness the president declassifying.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

The president can declassify "with no process." Which means to witness him declassifying involves hearing him say that something is declassified. There's no process so whatever the president says is the fact of classification. Actually even that is not required. The president could simply treat something as though it's not classified and as a result it's not classified. So I suppose there are two alternative examples of how someone could witness the president declassifying.

Senator Biden stole documents before his VP years.

Welp, now it turns out that Biden was sitting on what appears to be reams of classified documents going back not only to his eight years as vice president, but his 36 years as a senator.

The tone has shifted. The media is now in a mad dash to add “context” to the Joe Biden documents to create a distinction between the no good, guilty Trump and good ol’ Joe, who clearly just made honest mistakes.

 

[vibise]

The president can declassify "with no process." Which means to witness him declassifying involves hearing him say that something is declassified. There's no process so whatever the president says is the fact of classification. Actually even that is not required. The president could simply treat something as though it's not classified and as a result it's not classified. So I suppose there are two alternative examples of how someone could witness the president declassifying.

This is ridiculous.

Documents are classified by agency and are treated as such unless some formal declassification is done.
If Trump declassified documents secretly without telling anyone, then those agencies will continue treating those documents as classified and nothing will change. So what is the point of his doing that other than use this claim to protect himself?

What seems to be clear is that the only documents Trump is claiming to have declassified in his mind are the ones he took. Declassification would remove some of his legal culpability. Coincidental?

 

[Backup]

Were the documents classified cis or trans ?

TDS

 

[Thistle]

Senator Biden stole documents before his VP years.

Bad news for him.

""For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."​

- Matthew 7:2 NKJV​

 

[Thistle]

This is ridiculous.

No, disputing what I have said is ridiculous. The president declassifies "with no process!"

Documents are classified by agency

Subject to delegation by the President of the United States, and no agency has backwards authority over the president in this regard. NONE!

and are treated as such unless some formal declassification is done.

Absolutely not! The president declassifies "with no process!"

If Trump declassified documents secretly without telling anyone, then those agencies will continue treating those documents as classified and nothing will change.

So at whatever point they find themselves trying to backward imposed authority over the president the United States they are on notice that they are wrong! Prior to that they can be forgiven for being mistaken.

So what is the point of his doing that other than use this claim to protect himself?

When you get elected President of the United States then you can examine the motives of other presidents as they exercise their absolute presidential power. Until then your opinion on the matter is not worth the powder to blow into smithereens.

What seems to be clear

And you imagine we've all been waiting with bated breath to find what seems clear to you? You said some pretty ridiculous things in these threads.

is that the only documents Trump is claiming to have declassified in his mind are the ones he took.

That's essentially a logical totalism. The fact that the president would treat a document as unclassified in fact unclassifies it.

Declassification would remove some of his legal culpability. Coincidental?

No it's not coincidental it's structural. The president has to have this power and it must be capable of being exercised precisely this way for the president to do his job.

PolitiFact - Does the president have 'the ability to declassify anything at any time'?

The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had "revealed highly classified information

www.politifact.com

 

[vibise]

No, disputing what I have said is ridiculous. The president declassifies "with no process!"

Subject to delegation by the President of the United States, and no agency has backwards authority over the president in this regard. NONE!

Absolutely not! The president declassifies "with no process!"

So at whatever point they find themselves trying to backward imposed authority over the president the United States they are on notice that they are wrong! Prior to that they can be forgiven for being mistaken.

When you get elected President of the United States then you can examine the motives of other presidents as they exercise their absolute presidential power. Until then your opinion on the matter is not worth the powder to blow into smithereens.

And you imagine we've all been waiting with bated breath to find what seems clear to you? You said some pretty ridiculous things in these threads.

That's essentially a logical totalism. The fact that the president would treat a document as unclassified in fact unclassifies it.

No it's not coincidental it's structural. The president has to have this power and it must be capable of being exercised precisely this way for the president to do his job.

PolitiFact - Does the president have 'the ability to declassify anything at any time'?

The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had "revealed highly classified information

www.politifact.com

If the various agencies are not notified that some of their documents have been declassified, then of course they continue to treat them as classified. Why wouldn't they.

The fact is that the only documents that Trump claims to have declassified are the ones he took, and declassifying those removes some culpability.

If they have in fact been declassified, they could and should be made public. I doubt that will happen for more than a handful.

In any case, the broad issue here is that Trump took documents, classified and unclassified, that don't belong to him and then refused to return them.

 

[Thistle]

If the various agencies are not notified that some of their documents have been declassified, then of course they continue to treat them as classified. Why wouldn't they.

It is within the nature of law that it doesn't have to answer your hypotheticals, or your situation's, or your interrogatories.

The fact is

You know precious few facts. Anybody can read your posts and see that very clearly.

that the only documents that Trump claims to have declassified are the ones he took, and declassifying those removes some culpability.

No, you're presupposing culpability, so what it's removing, and "it" in this case is your presupposition, is your entire argument.

If they have in fact been declassified,

This is not a case for the subjunctive. Definitionally these were declassified.

they could and should be made public.

They could be subject to presidential privilege which is a completely different concept. Furthermore, they could simply be private documents of the president, and that was is the reason for many FOIA requests being rejected in cases against Bill Clinton.

I doubt that will happen for more than a handful.

I suppose that really depends on whether or not we have equal justice under law for Republicans versus Democrats. If the William Jefferson Clinton standard is applied these documents will be made public if and only if Donald Trump wants them to be public.

In any case, the broad issue here is that Trump took documents, classified and unclassified, that don't belong to him

No, under the William Jefferson Clinton standard all he has to do is say that these are private documents, and they're his, end of story.

and then refused to return them.

The archives demanded documents they had no right to demand, end of story.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

This is ridiculous.

Documents are classified by agency and are treated as such unless some formal declassification is done.

Presidential Trump verbal order.

If Trump declassified documents secretly without telling anyone, then those agencies will continue treating those documents as classified and nothing will change.

Speculation and hype.

So what is the point of his doing that other than use this claim to protect himself?

What seems to be clear is that the only documents Trump is claiming to have declassified in his mind are the ones he took.

You still use mind readings to support your notions?

Declassification would remove some of his legal culpability. Coincidental?

Inconvenient for you?

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

The archives demanded documents they had no right to demand, end of story.

They have powers superior tothe President.

They also never will put the heat on Biden.

 

[Thistle]

They have powers superior tothe President.

They also never will put the heat on Biden.

Yeah this is a separation of powers issue.

 

[vibise]

It is within the nature of law that it doesn't have to answer your hypotheticals, or your situation's, or your interrogatories.

You know precious few facts. Anybody can read your posts and see that very clearly.

No, you're presupposing culpability, so what it's removing, and "it" in this case is your presupposition, is your entire argument.

This is not a case for the subjunctive. Definitionally these were declassified.

They could be subject to presidential privilege which is a completely different concept. Furthermore, they could simply be private documents of the president, and that was is the reason for many FOIA requests being rejected in cases against Bill Clinton.

I suppose that really depends on whether or not we have equal justice under law for Republicans versus Democrats. If the William Jefferson Clinton standard is applied these documents will be made public if and only if Donald Trump wants them to be public.

No, under the William Jefferson Clinton standard all he has to do is say that these are private documents, and they're his, end of story.

The archives demanded documents they had no right to demand, end of story.

If Trump declassifies a document and no one else is informed, those documents continue to be treated as classified by the relevant agencies. This is hardly a hypothetical.

I do not think Trump's lawyers will be willing to state under oath that he declassified those documents, but we shall see.

The Archives has the right to all documents generated during a Presidency and documents handled by a President according to the Presidential Records Act.

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations. The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions.

Specifically, the PRA:

• Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.

Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of...

www.archives.gov