Billy talks to his pastor about God.

eternomade

Well-known member
Billy: “Pastor, does God love everybody?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy” (smiles, pats him on the head).

Billy: “How come it says in Romans 9 that he hated Esau?”.

Pastor: "Well Billy, (still smiling), the Bible does say God hates, but that is only talking about His secret decree, and as far as we are concerned, he loves everybody.”

Billy: “Pastor?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy.”

Billy: “If God tells us about his secret decree, is it still a secret?”

Pastor: “Er, well, I guess ... not, Billy, but I meant we should realize that there is a way the Bible talks about God’s love for everybody, and that’s what we should think about, not the one or two places where it says God hates.”.

Billy: “Oh. How does God love everybody?”

Pastor: “Well, he gives everybody rain and sunshine, and he blesses the people of the Earth with a conscience so they know right from wrong, and he has given them many gifts which they use to make the world a better and safer place to live.”

Billy: “Then he sends most of them to Hell?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy.”

Billy: “Pastor?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy.”

Billy: “Is it love for God to give people good things for a few years to make them feel comfortable and worthwhile, and then send them to Hell?”

Pastor: “Well, I...yes, it .... is, I think because it would have been worse if, I mean it would be, um, well, it is, I guess, because he did not send them directly to Hell, but he allowed them to experience his goodness and his provision for his creatures….”.

Billy: “Is it love to let someone experience something good they will remember and always hate God for, because they loved that good thing more than forgiveness?”

Pastor: “Could we change the subject, Billy? I am not sure my answers are satisfying you.”

Billy: “O.K., Pastor. Did Jesus die for everybody?”.

Pastor: “Well, Billy, thats how we are to talk about the death of Jesus to everyone, because we don't know who the elect are. So sure, Billy.”

Billy: “Pastor?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy.”

Billy: “If Jesus died for everybody, why isn’t everybody going to Heaven?”

Pastor: “Well, Billy, it’s because not everybody will accept him.”

Billy: “But, Pastor, I thought Jesus saved us. You are telling me we save Jesus.”

Pastor (laughing nervously): “Of course not, Billy! I believe that Jesus saves us completely! How would you get the idea I believed we save Jesus?”

Billy: “Well, Pastor, you told me that Jesus died for everybody, and only those who accept him will be saved. So, this means what Jesus doesn't save us, but something more is needed, and that something more is what we do by accepting him.

“For those who do not accept Jesus, they will perish. That means that Jesus’ dying for them cannot help them. His work for them was a failure. On the other hand, those who accept him make his work real by their acceptance-they save him from being a total loser!!

“Without us, Jesus and his work of salvation would be doomed!

“If Jesus can not save us without our permission, we are the real Saviors, and Jesus is the one we save! Wow! What would he ever do without us?!”

Pastor: “Er ... uh, ...that’s not what I mean. I mean if,... it is , I said ….. no, I believe Jesus is the one who does the saving, Billy, it’s just that …. God has made it so that we ... are free to acc ... meaning, we are, are ... Billy, the Bible is mysterious. It seems to mean certain things, but it doesn’t really, like it says …. you are using logic, Billy. The Bible is not logical and the truths are not something we can fit into our human minds.”

Billy: “Pastor?”

Pastor (now showing a slight frown): “Yes, Billy.”

Billy: “When you say the Bible is not logical, does that mean the Bible does not make sense? ‘Cause you made sense when you said the Bible wasn’t logical. I think it was because you used logic that you made sense.”

Pastor (now glowering at Billy): “No, Billy, I didn’t mean the Bible does not make sense. It does make sense, but just not our kind of sense.”

Billy: “Pastor?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy.”

Billy: “Why would God give a Bible to us that did not make our kind of sense?”

Pastor: “Well, Billy, it’s not that ... I think it’s .... it makes sense, just does not give us the answers we like to hear, and says things that seem contradictory but really are not, to keep us from asking smart-aleck questions.”

Billy: “So, God doesn’t make our kind of sense to keep us humble?”

Pastor: “That’s right, Billy. God wants to keep us humble, so he does not let us think we can be absolutely certain about the things some proud people are certain about.”

Billy: “Pastor?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy.”

Billy: “Are you certain about what you just said to me?”

Pastor (showing obvious irritation): “What do you think, Billy?”

Billy: “I think you just called yourself a proud person, but I don’t know why, ‘cause you are so smart and know so much about God, and how much he needs us.”

Pastor: “Billy, why don’t you go out and play, like the other children?”

Billy: “Why should I go out and play, when I can stay in here with you and learn how to save God?”

Pastor: “You need to be careful, Billy. I never said we save God. You are the one who said that, remember. I simply believe our choices are significant, and God does not treat us like robots. He created us to have true human responsibility.”

Billy: “Pastor?”

Pastor (now looking quite angry): “This will have to be the last question, young man! I have important things to do and you should be outside playing.”

Billy: “When God put Abraham to sleep and made him the promise was that God telling him what he thought of his ‘human responsibility’?”

Pastor (seething): “I have a bad headache, Billy, and I can’t answer any more of your questions, but I can tell you this. Whoever has been teaching you has been telling you things a boy your age should not even be thinking about. It sounds like you have been learning some kind of hyper-Calvinism! You better be careful, young man!”

Billy: “I don’t know about hyper-Calintisim, but I have been reading these things in the Bible. Thanks for straightening me out. I will try to cut these bad parts out. Can I borrow some scissors?”

Pastor (rising from his chair): “Get out of here, you, you, you ….!”

Billy: “That’s O.K., Pastor. I’ll ask Joey. He was using some good scissors when we were cutting out our ‘Friends with Jesus’ pictures for Sunday school. Good-bye.”

Copyright 1997 by John Pedersen
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Billy should have talked to me.

I wouldn't get angry with him, and would take all the time he needed.

And I would explain to Billy why I believe his objections fail, and that if he would personally seek God, God would show him real choice in Scripture.
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
Of course it helps the OP that the pastor is bumbling and incompetent in his explanation of Scripture. If little Billy had come to me, I would have set him straight right at the first question by showing him Luke 14:26, and pointing out that the same word translated "hate" in regards to how God feels about Esau, is translated here as "hate" in regards to how we should feel towards our parents, wife and children, and our siblings. I would ask little Billy, "Do you think whatever Jesus means by hating our relatives, it includes wanting them to be cast into hell for eternity?" And then I would tell him to keep playing with his friends.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Pastor: “Well, Billy, thats how we are to talk about the death of Jesus to everyone, because we don't know who the elect are. So sure, Billy.”
It appears that Calvinist Billy is arguing with his Calvinist pastor, so what's the point your trying to make?


Doug
 

Gomer

Active member
Billy: “Pastor, does God love everybody?”

Pastor: “Yes, Billy” (smiles, pats him on the head).

Billy: “How come it says in Romans 9 that he hated Esau?”.

Pastor: "Well Billy, (still smiling), the Bible does say God hates, but that is only talking about His secret decree, and as far as we are concerned, he loves everybody.”
John 3:16 for God so loved the world...that whosoever believeth....

World in this context refers to the totality of mankind and that totality is made up of two subsets, believers and unbelievers and the subset of the totality that believes will be saved/not perish. From the previous context in Jn 3, it was not just some that could be healed of a poisonous serpent bite, but any and everyone who obeyed the instructions to go and look upon the brazen serpent could be healed. Likewise any and everyone bitten by the poison of sin can go to the cross of Christ and find a cure. Matt 11:28f "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shalt find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." This 'great invitation' is not just for some and is not just some who have been burdened and troubled by the effects of sin, but any and everyone who has been burdened and trouble by sin can come to Christ to find rest and redemption to their soul for God loves everyone.

Matt 19:12-14 God loves all the little children who possess the characteristics and traits necessary to enter the kingdom. By extension God loves all the adults these children grow up to be. If God hates some children, God by extension would hate those necessary characteristics and traits necessary to be in the kingdom.

In Rom 9:13 Paul is quoting from Malachi 1 which is not referring to the individuals Jacob and Esau but their descendants, Israel and Edom. God's hate against Edom was not some arbitrary, baseless predetermined hate but God's hate and judgment came to Edom for their mistreatment of Israel, Eze 25:12-14. Yet Israel had sinned against God as Edom, therefore God's judgment was to also come to Israel, Mal 2. God anticipated Israel questioning God's love for them by bringing His judgment upon Israel but God proved His love for Israel, Mal 1:1-3. Therefore God's judgment against Israel did not prove He hated the people of Israel no more than His judgement against Edom proved He hate the people of Edom. God's hate is not of people but the sins people commit as in this case in Malachi, God hated the sins Edom and Israel had committed against God...not the people.

God chosen Israel to be His chosen people for He loved them (Jer 31:3) but because of Israel's continued rebellion of God, God cast them off (Rom 11). In Hosea 9 God said to them that he hates them and would love them no more...Israel fell out of God's grace and favor. Yet though God 'hated" Israel He still loved them to bring the Messiah (Rom 5:8) to them whereby they could find salvation. Those who of Israel who obeyed (Acts 2:38) once again found grace and favor with God. God's hate for Israel was for Israel's sins, not an emotional hatred of the people for some of Israel did regain God's love, favor.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Of course it helps the OP that the pastor is bumbling and incompetent in his explanation of Scripture. If little Billy had come to me, I would have set him straight right at the first question by showing him Luke 14:26, and pointing out that the same word translated "hate" in regards to how God feels about Esau, is translated here as "hate" in regards to how we should feel towards our parents, wife and children, and our siblings. I would ask little Billy, "Do you think whatever Jesus means by hating our relatives, it includes wanting them to be cast into hell for eternity?" And then I would tell him to keep playing with his friends.
Interesting observation.

Can you explain this:
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So because we hate our parents, we should ask if there is injustice on God's part?

or is there another meaning altogether.

Why are you lying to Billy?
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
 
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