Blood Transfusions

Rom 14:14

Doug
Romans 14:14 states that "nothing is unclean in itself". However, Jesus' words at Revelation 2:14 shows that food sacrificed to idols is (still) forbidden (as was mentioned at Acts 15:20, 29):

But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam...so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Romans 14:14 states that "nothing is unclean in itself". However, Jesus' words at Revelation 2:14 shows that food sacrificed to idols is (still) forbidden (as was mentioned at Acts 15:20, 29):

Rom 14:14I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

It says a lot more than " nothing is unclean in itself " it says:
1) that Paul is absolutely certain of what he is about to say,
2) that what he is about to say has been discussed with and confirmed by the Lord Jesus as being absolutely true,
3) and that truth is, a) nothing is unclean in itself, and b) that it is a personal decision, not an absolute, universal law, whether something is "unclean".

And there are other truths in between the lines.

1) Paul is writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
2) that under such inspiration, Paul says that the same Jesus that spoke in Revelation is the same Jesus that he says that convinced him that " nothing" is unclean, and that there cannot be a contradiction between Revelation and Romans.
3) "Nothing" is unclean leaves nothing outside of itself. This means blood and strangled animal meat is included in "nothing is unclean in itself".

Rev 2:14, 20 cannot be a prohibition of anything if "nothing is unclean in itself". Benson's commentary says this about the opening of verse 14:

But I have a few things against thee — Things that deserve reproof, and require reformation; because thou hast there — Those whom thou oughtest to have immediately cast out from the flock, that hold the doctrine of Balaam — Doctrine nearly resembling his: who taught Balak — And the rest of the Moabites; to cast a stumbling-block before the children — Rather, the sons, as των υιων signifies; of Israel

This is the same message of Paul in Rom 14, and 1 Cor 8 that what we eat or drink is sin only in if it misleads or negatively affects the children. It is not the act itself, it is the effect it has on our fellow believers that offends the Lord.

Doug
 
Rom 14:14I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

It says a lot more than " nothing is unclean in itself " it says:
1) that Paul is absolutely certain of what he is about to say,
2) that what he is about to say has been discussed with and confirmed by the Lord Jesus as being absolutely true,
3) and that truth is, a) nothing is unclean in itself, and b) that it is a personal decision, not an absolute, universal law, whether something is "unclean".

It seems you've ignored Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 10:20, 21(, where he states): "but I say that things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

(More than that, you've ignored that when Paul refers to Christians being able to eat meat sacrificed to idols if it is "sold in meat markets" because there's no reason to inquire where it came from--which means that the meat "sacrificed to idols" was not separated from meat that wasn't.)
And there are other truths in between the lines.

1) Paul is writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
2) that under such inspiration, Paul says that the same Jesus that spoke in Revelation is the same Jesus that he says that convinced him that " nothing" is unclean, and that there cannot be a contradiction between Revelation and Romans.
3) "Nothing" is unclean leaves nothing outside of itself. This means blood and strangled animal meat is included in "nothing is unclean in itself".

Rev 2:14, 20 cannot be a prohibition of anything if "nothing is unclean in itself". Benson's commentary says this about the opening of verse 14:

But I have a few things against thee — Things that deserve reproof, and require reformation; because thou hast there — Those whom thou oughtest to have immediately cast out from the flock, that hold the doctrine of Balaam — Doctrine nearly resembling his: who taught Balak — And the rest of the Moabites; to cast a stumbling-block before the children — Rather, the sons, as των υιων signifies; of Israel

This is the same message of Paul in Rom 14, and 1 Cor 8 that what we eat or drink is sin only in if it misleads or negatively affects the children. It is not the act itself, it is the effect it has on our fellow believers that offends the Lord.

Doug
By saying Revelation 2:14, 20 cannot be a prohibition of anything if "nothing is unclean in itself", you've ignored the words of Jesus himself, who specifically stated Jezebel "misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols."

Now, one must ask, if it is okay to eat the foods sacrificed to idols (per your interpretation of what Paul is saying), why does Jesus say his people are being misled into doing so?

(Surely you must believe that Jesus has a "weak conscious", or there is another explanation?)
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
It seems you've ignored Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 10:20, 21(, where he states): "but I say that things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

(More than that, you've ignored that when Paul refers to Christians being able to eat meat sacrificed to idols if it is "sold in meat markets" because there's no reason to inquire where it came from--which means that the meat "sacrificed to idols" was not separated from meat that wasn't.)

By saying Revelation 2:14, 20 cannot be a prohibition of anything if "nothing is unclean in itself", you've ignored the words of Jesus himself, who specifically stated Jezebel "misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols."

Now, one must ask, if it is okay to eat the foods sacrificed to idols (per your interpretation of what Paul is saying), why does Jesus say his people are being misled into doing so?

(Surely you must believe that Jesus has a "weak conscious", or there is another explanation?)

They are being misled into participating in the pagan rituals which incorporate not only the feasting on the food sacrificed, but also sex acts with temple prostitutes as part of the worship protocols. It is the same image that Paul draws on when talking about a believer sleeping with prostitutes, uniting Christ with the prosititute making them one. (1 Corinthians 6:15-16)

Doug
 
They are being misled into participating in the pagan rituals which incorporate not only the feasting on the food sacrificed, but also sex acts with temple prostitutes as part of the worship protocols.
Or, they're simply being misled into eating food sacrificed to idols and fornication as stated in the text(, and as forbidden by the Jerusalem council per Acts 15).
It is the same image that Paul draws on when talking about a believer sleeping with prostitutes, uniting Christ with the prosititute making them one. (1 Corinthians 6:15-16)

Doug
That's not "the same image". That's part of the "fornication" portion that is prohibited in all of the texts mentioned.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Or, they're simply being misled into eating food sacrificed to idols and fornication as stated in the text(, and as forbidden by the Jerusalem council per Acts 15).

That's not "the same image". That's part of the "fornication" portion that is prohibited in all of the texts mentioned.

1 Cor10:18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Paul is not just talking about eating food sacrificed to idols, for he says he doesn't mean that food sacrificed or idols themselves are anything, but that the participants are worshipping demons and not God and that Christians should not both worship God and demons anymore than a prostitute should be united with Christ. The only way to participate with demons is to participate in the worship itself! Food is nothing, because all foods are clean!

Doug
 
1 Cor10:18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Paul is not just talking about eating food sacrificed to idols, for he says he doesn't mean that food sacrificed or idols themselves are anything, but that the participants are worshipping demons and not God and that Christians should not both worship God and demons anymore than a prostitute should be united with Christ. The only way to participate with demons is to participate in the worship itself! Food is nothing, because all foods are clean!

Doug
Notice Paul begins by asking: "aren't those eating the sacrifices fellow partakers in the altar?"

So, his point is: even though idols aren't anything, what is sacrificed is actually offered to demons rather than to God. For this reason, we should not eat said sacrifices so as to not become "fellow partakers in the altar" (as "you cannot take part in both the Lord's table and the demons' table").
 
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