book of henoch

Hark

Well-known member
Btw, I do not care what book of Henoch 'teaches'.

I listen to Him and what He says.

A point of discussion above, was that I take the Book of Rev literally, and others do not take it literally,
and view it as merely symbolic. My further question is, symbolic of what? Since symbols represent something.
they are not empty abstractions and neither would God waste time on empty abstractions.

He does refer to reality, albeit realities at times unfamiliar to the current earth.

he does not speak nonsense. Every word He says is valid, important. And all through prophets he asks us to be attent and read.

"Be attent".

That is the etymology or meaning of your screen name, hark.
I can agree but as God enables us; and to be attentive is to not to ignore the things that are false in the Book of Enoch. If a prophet is false and we are to disregard them, then when the Book of Enoch is false, we are to disregard them. Yes, it may have plagiarize scripture in the Book of Enoch to make it believable, but since we have those scripture in the accepted scripture is why we can disregard the Book of Enoch entirely.
 

e v e

Super Member
I can agree but as God enables us; and to be attentive is to not to ignore the things that are false in the Book of Enoch. If a prophet is false and we are to disregard them, then when the Book of Enoch is false, we are to disregard them. Yes, it may have plagiarize scripture in the Book of Enoch to make it believable, but since we have those scripture in the accepted scripture is why we can disregard the Book of Enoch entirely.
I never said Henochs a prophet or that the book was inspired - that would only be for Him to judge. Only He is the judge of souls.
I would also not agree that the book is wrong in every count or that it should be disregarded.
 

e v e

Super Member
That is one problem, that men have decided among themselves what did or did not come from God.
A bit over-confident I would say.
of their so called traditions and canons.

I don't follow those, hark.
 

Hark

Well-known member
this is not His planet. He does not create anything revolving, evolving.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not...14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is not evolving and just because that false science says it is, does not mean that it is. Life comes from similar life as life did not comes from nothing. That is the Law of Biogenesis. That false science coined the term micro evolution from the Law of Biogenesis to make macro evolution believable because it cannot be observed nor proven. They even blur the definitions between micro & macro so that when they give you an example of macro evolution, they are really giving you an example of microevolution hence the Law of Biogenesis.

Real science is about what can be observed and proven. The basis for a scientific theory to exists is that the phenomenon has to be observed in the natural world which macroevolution cannot be observed, but only exists in the realm of the imagination. It takes more faith to believe in the evolution theory than in God's words about creation.
the prince of the air rules this prison, per NT. This place is Babylon, per Rev.
The prince of the air may rule presently. but if you learn any lesson from the Book of Job, Satan cannot do anything without God's permission; hence Jesus is Lord that even the demons are afraid of Him.
The war about geo and helio was a confusion of realms, on purpose.
Jesus is still Lord.
His earth is not heliocentric. This one is. Rome was more than happy to fix that idea that there is only one creation and that this earth was it, meaning that scripture would have been wrong, since scripture doesn't say earth is heliocentric... Another of esau's corruptions.
God told us how He created everything; the heavens and the earth from Genesis 1:1-2:3 and He told us where the generations of mankind had come from starting at Genesis 2:4 of the rehashing of that sixth day of creation.

The O.T. is Israel's family tree as the sons of God and Jesus verified the scriptures Himself.

So this concept you are sharing is not from scripture since Jesus verified scripture as kept way after Esau had existed. I know you are using him as an archetype, but it seems rather unfair to use him in that way as it is inconsistent for how Jesus validify scripture.
His 144k sons are being restored to the glorified being of Eden lost at the fall... any day now..
And with Christ will rebuild Eden (=New creation, new eden).
I do not know how you can limit that to 144,000. I know of the 144,000 that are virgin men that will be raptured from the earth to serve as His personal choir that follows him around wherever He goes; Revelation 14:1-5 , but there are more raptured then them since it includes the O.T. saints per Luke 13:24-30 for why some saved believers will be found in iniquity for why they are left behind to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation.

There is even a 144,000 Jews that will serve as witnesses of Him after the rapture event for the duration of the great tribulation which is entirely different from your 144,000 that you seem to imply are the only ones to inherit eternal life? Is that what you mean? if so, scripture disagrees.

You need His help to prune away the things not true as His words will prove that to you so that you may bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him
 

Hark

Well-known member
I never said Henochs a prophet or that the book was inspired - that would only be for Him to judge. Only He is the judge of souls.
I would also not agree that the book is wrong in every count or that it should be disregarded.
He gave us His words on how to prove or disprove a prophet. It should also apply to a book not found in the accepted scripture.

And the Book of Enoch was one of the many books that were not considered scripture since scripture cannot run against scripture.

If you want to find the truth, Jesus says go to the scripture for they testify of Him so you would come to Him for life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.... 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Now if the archetype Esau had done its work, Jesus would not be able to say that.

2 Timothy 3:3 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The disciples had confidence in God to keep and provide the scripture we need to use it as meat to discern good & evil by it.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I understand that because of many modern bible versions and they are all not saying the same thing is why we need Him to know which Bible loves him to keep His words and when others do not keep His words, proving that they did not love Him. He has led me to rely on the KJV.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
 

e v e

Super Member
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not...14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is not evolving and just because that false science says it is, does not mean that it is. Life comes from similar life as life did not comes from nothing. That is the Law of Biogenesis. That false science coined the term micro evolution from the Law of Biogenesis to make macro evolution believable because it cannot be observed nor proven. They even blur the definitions between micro & macro so that when they give you an example of macro evolution, they are really giving you an example of microevolution hence the Law of Biogenesis.

Real science is about what can be observed and proven. The basis for a scientific theory to exists is that the phenomenon has to be observed in the natural world which macroevolution cannot be observed, but only exists in the realm of the imagination. It takes more faith to believe in the evolution theory than in God's words about creation.

The prince of the air may rule presently. but if you learn any lesson from the Book of Job, Satan cannot do anything without God's permission; hence Jesus is Lord that even the demons are afraid of Him.

Jesus is still Lord.

God told us how He created everything; the heavens and the earth from Genesis 1:1-2:3 and He told us where the generations of mankind had come from starting at Genesis 2:4 of the rehashing of that sixth day of creation.

The O.T. is Israel's family tree as the sons of God and Jesus verified the scriptures Himself.

So this concept you are sharing is not from scripture since Jesus verified scripture as kept way after Esau had existed. I know you are using him as an archetype, but it seems rather unfair to use him in that way as it is inconsistent for how Jesus validify scripture.

I do not know how you can limit that to 144,000. I know of the 144,000 that are virgin men that will be raptured from the earth to serve as His personal choir that follows him around wherever He goes; Revelation 14:1-5 , but there are more raptured then them since it includes the O.T. saints per Luke 13:24-30 for why some saved believers will be found in iniquity for why they are left behind to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation.

There is even a 144,000 Jews that will serve as witnesses of Him after the rapture event for the duration of the great tribulation which is entirely different from your 144,000 that you seem to imply are the only ones to inherit eternal life? Is that what you mean? if so, scripture disagrees.

You need His help to prune away the things not true as His words will prove that to you so that you may bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him
i dont care what matrix science describes.
it but describes the fallen corrupt world after the fall
and has nothing to do with His Creation.

The quotes you use do not describe He creating this (current) world.
 
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e v e

Super Member
The current cosmology will be destroyed , just as prophets tell.

and it's for a serious reason... because it's a corruption.

he does not create corruption. Neither would he create what is His Good, which He calls Good in His scripture and then go destroy it!

Context: He said that Before the fall about His creation.

The situation changed after the fall when cosmology got corrupted and 'astray'.

And true, not evolving or revolving or expanding 'space'.

all that is nasa guile. Look up the etymology of nasa in hebrew. to Beguile.

This is a freak show satanic earth which He refers to in rev as Babylon.
 

e v e

Super Member
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not...14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is not evolving and just because that false science says it is, does not mean that it is. Life comes from similar life as life did not comes from nothing. That is the Law of Biogenesis. That false science coined the term micro evolution from the Law of Biogenesis to make macro evolution believable because it cannot be observed nor proven. They even blur the definitions between micro & macro so that when they give you an example of macro evolution, they are really giving you an example of microevolution hence the Law of Biogenesis.

Real science is about what can be observed and proven. The basis for a scientific theory to exists is that the phenomenon has to be observed in the natural world which macroevolution cannot be observed, but only exists in the realm of the imagination. It takes more faith to believe in the evolution theory than in God's words about creation.

The prince of the air may rule presently. but if you learn any lesson from the Book of Job, Satan cannot do anything without God's permission; hence Jesus is Lord that even the demons are afraid of Him.

Jesus is still Lord.

God told us how He created everything; the heavens and the earth from Genesis 1:1-2:3 and He told us where the generations of mankind had come from starting at Genesis 2:4 of the rehashing of that sixth day of creation.

The O.T. is Israel's family tree as the sons of God and Jesus verified the scriptures Himself.

So this concept you are sharing is not from scripture since Jesus verified scripture as kept way after Esau had existed. I know you are using him as an archetype, but it seems rather unfair to use him in that way as it is inconsistent for how Jesus validify scripture.

I do not know how you can limit that to 144,000. I know of the 144,000 that are virgin men that will be raptured from the earth to serve as His personal choir that follows him around wherever He goes; Revelation 14:1-5 , but there are more raptured then them since it includes the O.T. saints per Luke 13:24-30 for why some saved believers will be found in iniquity for why they are left behind to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation.

There is even a 144,000 Jews that will serve as witnesses of Him after the rapture event for the duration of the great tribulation which is entirely different from your 144,000 that you seem to imply are the only ones to inherit eternal life? Is that what you mean? if so, scripture disagrees.

You need His help to prune away the things not true as His words will prove that to you so that you may bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him
the 144k are the restored sons of Him lost at the fall. 144k attributes of Him.

they are not 'men' in the current type animal body.

the 144k souls upon this earth, who kept his covenant given to Abraham to return to eden, will be restored and they will be the 144k (restored ones of eden) who with Christ will bring many more millions to Him, of those of jacob who will suffer tribulation.

the 144k includes females, since the female is the inside and core of love of male, which is the meaning of to cling to each his female. Scripture mentions the males because are the legal representative of His attributes lost at the fall and are His sons who will rule with Him.

this is not about jewish males in the current babylon-capital called israel (that is but esau!) Israel and this is not about those following judaism, also belonging to babylon.

Israel and Judah are not upon this earth, israel and judah being His 144k Souls alive right now and being restored soon! The rest of believers will go home after, and will suffer trib...that is the theme of lawlessness, clinging to this world and not believing in His covenant, which is to return to Eden.

This is about Hebrew Souls of Him being restored to their original birthright and receiving their glorified being - at the Change.
 
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e v e

Super Member
Do feel free to go to apologetics and look at the thread on the ape body prison i started and the one Bonnie started called eve what do you mean.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Do feel free to go to apologetics and look at the thread on the ape body prison i started and the one Bonnie started called eve what do you mean.
all believers will go home, be it at the Change or after suffering tribulation.
the 144k are the restored sons of Him lost at the fall. 144k attributes of Him.

they are not 'men' in the current type animal body.

the 144k souls upon this earth, who kept his covenant given to Abraham to return to eden, will be restored and they will be the 144k (restored ones of eden) who with Christ will bring many more millions to Him, of those of jacob who will suffer tribulation.

the 144k includes females, since the female is the inside and core of love of male, which is the meaning of to cling to each his female. Scripture mentions the males because are the legal representative of His attributes lost at the fall and are His sons who will rule with Him.

this is not about jewish males in the current babylon-capital called israel (that is but esau!) Israel and this is not about those following judaism, also belonging to babylon.

Israel and Judah are not upon this earth, israel and judah being His 144k Souls alive right now and being restored soon! The rest of believers will go home after, and will suffer trib...that is the theme of lawlessness, clinging to this world and not believing in His covenant, which is to return to Eden.

This is about Hebrew Souls of Him being restored to their original birthright and receiving their glorified being - at the Change.
Thanks for sharing in your discussion, but the call to lean on Jesus Christ to help us prove everything by everyone, even ourselves, is the message for how we are to follow & abide in Him daily. When He prunes us is how we are more fruitful in the knowledge of Him in being witnesses of the Truth.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
His Feminine spirit is the Word and the inside and core of love of Christ, such is said of Him He is the Word:
They (father, His spirit and the son) are one. The word is always feminine and the male is always legally the executor of...
who Speaks the Word into being. That is the nature of the Image of God. To create beautiful things from the word.

since the fall that image got corrupted...
and both male and female are backwards.
This post makes zero sense, nor is it even remotely Biblical. The grammatical gender of a noun doesn't always reflect the noun's actual gender, or if it even has one. And Pneuma in Greek is neuter, and the NT was written entirely in Greek. The Holy Spirit has no gender. And Jesus is the Word, as per John 1:1 and NOT the Holy Spirit. There is no "legal" execution of creation. Honestly, where do you GET these weird ideas from???
 

e v e

Super Member
Thanks for sharing in your discussion, but the call to lean on Jesus Christ to help us prove everything by everyone, even ourselves, is the message for how we are to follow & abide in Him daily. When He prunes us is how we are more fruitful in the knowledge of Him in being witnesses of the Truth.
thank you for sharing you point of view.:)
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I never said it was scripture.

Then we don't have to believe it, do we? And it should be judged by what IS Scripture!
As a soul you can have discernment, reading news or talking to another, to know if something’s true, example deciding who to vote for or if to vaccinate etc.

And we can know what YOU say on here is Scriptural or not by comparing what YOU write with what actual Scripture--the Bible--says. And most of what you write on here is NOT Scriptural at all.
All I said is that henoch says that eden was a cube - just as rev says new eden will be! - and it says that eden earth is in the otherworld - as the OT and prophets say .
Revelation says no such thing. I told you what the measuring in Revelation is symbolic of. it has nothing to do with a cube. Peter says that when the earth and heavens disappear there will be a NEW heaven and a NEW earth, the "home of righteousness." I think that means the new earth and heaven will be combined. Doesn't sound like a cube to me.

The problem is, you take too much of what that book has in it as literal, when much of it is highly figurative.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Satan got punished for tempting Eve, and Eve got punished for tempting Adam and Adam got punished for harkening unto the woman's word when he knew better having heard it from God Himself, but he doubted because he harkened unto the woman's word.

Let this be known to all.. that this is where the woman was wrong for the first time. * Little humor there...
...and maybe wrong for the LAST time, ha! Also some humor here, Hark! :p
 

e v e

Super Member
Then we don't have to believe it, do we? And it should be judged by what IS Scripture!


And we can know what YOU say on here is Scriptural or not by comparing what YOU write with what actual Scripture--the Bible--says. And most of what you write on here is NOT Scriptural at all.

Revelation says no such thing. I told you what the measuring in Revelation is symbolic of. it has nothing to do with a cube. Peter says that when the earth and heavens disappear there will be a NEW heaven and a NEW earth, the "home of righteousness." I think that means the new earth and heaven will be combined. Doesn't sound like a cube to me.

The problem is, you take too much of what that book has in it as literal, when much of it is highly figurative.
Exactly. Which I did. I saw that Rev says New Eden is a cube and therefore THAT is what caused me to accept that detail from Henoch.

Rev was the source.


What you failed to do what show me why when He says New Eden is a cube I should not believe Him.

Of course I believe Him!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Exactly. Which I did. I saw that Rev says New Eden is a cube and therefore THAT is what caused me to accept that detail from Henoch.

I don't see where Revelation says that, if you are referring to this in Revelation 21:

The New Jerusalem​

10 And he carried me away [g]in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her [h]brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, [j]with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The one who spoke with me had a [k]gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the [l]rod, [m]fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, [n]seventy-two yards, according to human [o]measurements, which are also angelic measurements. 18 The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like [p]clear glass. 19 The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; 20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I saw no [q]temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its [r]temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those [t]whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


This is all entirely symbolic, e v e. OR do you think a real city is going to come floating down out of heaven and settle on the earth? All this is symbolizing the church and "measuring" who is actually in it.
Rev was the source.

See above.
What you failed to do what show me why when He says New Eden is a cube I should not believe Him.

What YOU have failed to do is prove to me that it should be taken literally and is symbolically. Because Revelation is rife with symbolism.
Of course I believe Him!
So do I! But I also can discern what is mostly symbolic in Revelation and what is meant to be taken literally...the New Jerusalem coming down out of the clouds is the church...measuring it is "measuring" the number of believers in it. The beauty of its walls and gates shows its glory in God's eyes. Etc. and etc.

I am sorry for the underlining; I tried to get rid of it but cannot.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
i dont care what matrix science describes.
it but describes the fallen corrupt world after the fall
and has nothing to do with His Creation.

The quotes you use do not describe He creating this (current) world.
Ah, but THIS verse DOES:

Psalm 24:1

New American Standard Bible 1995

The King of Glory Entering Zion.​

A Psalm of David.​

24 The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it.
For He has founded it upon the seas
And established it upon the rivers.
.

Which Paul reiterates here:

1 Corinthians 10:25-26

New American Standard Bible 1995

25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains.

The earth IS the LORD'S--IS, not WAS. Present tense. So the earth we have NOW still belongs to God! That means He created it. And ALL it contains--present tense--not all it used to contain. And those who dwell--present tense--in it. ONLY Adam and Eve dwelt in Eden in perfection, so the "those" here cannot mean only Adam and Eve, but all humanity. And God established it--it's a done deal. Though groaning under the influence of sin, God still created this world and the heavens around us.

So, while God did not create the sin that came into the world, He still created our universe and it still bears the stamp of His glory and beauty. Remember what Paul wrote in Romans 1?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

We can see something of God's divine nature and power by His creation--the very creation we have NOW, because no one can see what Eden was like before the Fall. We can only see how it is now. But even in its fallen state, "The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. (Ps. 19:1, NASB 1995)

ARE telling; IS declaring--present tense. Going on even NOW. So, how could the heavens be declaring God's glory IF they belong to Satan and his realm?
 

e v e

Super Member
Please, since to you it is all 'symbolic', tell what "you think" it symbolizes. Because symbols perforce refer to something. They are not mental abstractions.

I've stated these descriptions of New Eden's dimensions are quite specific because they refer to a literal reality (new Eden in the other world). God does not give us vague mental abstractions. NOW is not synonymous with 'here'. I never said His Heaven belongs to Satan. I said 'this earth' is ruled by the prince of the air. This earth is not His Heaven.

Thanks for all the references but as you know that I have said before, when His Creation is referred to, this current earth is not meant.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Do you not remember last year, on the APO board, you wrote a few times "Henoch"--maybe about the book of Enoch, but not sure anymore--and when I asked you about Henoch, you apologized, and said something to the effect that you were working with some Dutch person and Henoch was Dutch for Enoch. But I checked and it is not, and even gave you the same link, showing it is spelled the same in both languages. Do you remember that? I cannot prove it, since I did not save that conversation and a link would no longer work. But I am pretty sure I am remembering it correctly.

You choose to refer to Henoch as Henoch? Oh, I see what you mean now, from your link...it is the DR'S version of Enoch, if I am reading correctly. That explains it.

As for the Book of Enoch, I never said one word about it on here, for or against. I was just asking about the Henoch in your subject line. That is all, and if maybe it was a typo. But it is not considered inspired Scripture, and is not part of the Canon, but it appears to be an interesting read.
 
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