Book of Mormon

Richard7 said:
How do you determine truth or not? I will tell you how!

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Matthew 7
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While you’re in Matthew 7 take a look further down…

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

What did Joseph Smith mean when he wrote this?

D&C 9:7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind;

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to all who come to him for protection. Do not add to his words, or he may rebuke you and expose you as a liar.

The Bereans studied the scriptures daily to determine whether what Paul was saying was true. They knew it had to coincide with what God had said.

Mormonism doesn’t. Joseph Smith introduced a different gospel. We were warned about that. His prophecies didn’t prove true. His book doesn’t prove true. His doctrines are different from Christ’s.

You can convince yourself that just about anything is true if all you go on are feelings. You can even believe it came from God. People do that all the time.
 
brotherofJared said:
I know. In English, that means they are also separate and distinct beings, like you and I are both separate and distinct. We're both persons and beings, just like God and Jesus are both persons and beings. That's not hard to grasp but I'll bet you'll figure out a way to make a mess of it

I have no problem with the idea that they are separate and distinct. I already know they are, both physically and spiritually.

The idea that the person can be separated from the being is a technical distinction created to support the philosophies of men.



This then is again skewed by your definition of a person. It is not so skewed by members of our church. We understand that a person is a being. You all have made your own vernacular to create an invented object of worship not found in the Bible.
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E. Calvin Beisner

God in Three Persons



The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153
 
1. Could an uneducated young person, in something like 65 working days, actually produce a 500+ page history of ancient people, with complex, flawlessly interwoven plot lines, elaborate cultural and technical detail, and amazing theological and spiritual richness? And (most impressive of all) could he do it by dictating to a scribe while looking into a stone placed in the bottom of a hat? Can you even imagine doing that yourself? Or, if you’re not feeling quite that ambitious, try something simpler. Try dictating, with eyes closed, 77 long verses of spiritual allegory based on expert olive tree horticulture (Jacob 5). And remember . . . you’ve never seen an olive tree or known an olive farmer in your life.

2. Would it be possible for that uneducated young man to include in his dictation ancient Hebrew idioms and and sophisticated literary structures like chiasmus?
3. How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, including exquisite detail of the Arabian Peninsula, where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes things about that region that were not known in the western world.
4. How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 names in the Book of Mormon, most of them verifiably Semitic?
5. Why would the witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the gold plates never deny their witness, even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith and the church? With so many people involved, could a hoax of this magnitude go uncovered.
You don’t have a good answer to those questions? So maybe you admit that Joseph Smith could not have written this book. But where did it come from? Maybe Satan put him up to it . . . but then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ, a book that does nothing but promote faith in Christ and righteous living? Didn’t Jesus say that a house divided against itself would fall (Matthew 12:25).

Book of Mormon

Only by the HG who can and will witness to us, that Jesus is Lord and Savior, crucified and resurrected on the third day... By the Holy Ghost, we know it is true, but we only come to that truth if we seek it.
forums.carm.org
 
Magdalena said:
While you’re in Matthew 7 take a look further down…

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

What did Joseph Smith mean when he wrote this?

D&C 9:7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind;

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to all who come to him for protection. Do not add to his words, or he may rebuke you and expose you as a liar.

The Bereans studied the scriptures daily to determine whether what Paul was saying was true. They knew it had to coincide with what God had said.

Mormonism doesn’t. Joseph Smith introduced a different gospel. We were warned about that. His prophecies didn’t prove true. His book doesn’t prove true. His doctrines are different from Christ’s.

You can convince yourself that just about anything is true if all you go on are feelings. You can even believe it came from God. People do that all the time.
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Laurie F. Maffly-Kipp introduced the Penguin edition by affirming, “However one decides to think about this book, it is a fascinating tale well worth reading for a number of reasons.” And the eminent physicist and mathematician Freeman Dyson related that he personally “treasures” the Book of Mormon for its “dramatic story in a fine biblical style.”

As a classic, the multi-faceted Book of Mormon can be read not only for its valuable religious teachings or for its impact on American religious history, but also for its high literary quality and compelling narrative. This was recognized by David Noel Freedman, a widely respected non-Mormon biblical scholar, who reportedly remarked, “Mormons are very lucky. Their book is very beautiful.”14

The Book of Mormon can be studied academically as well. Indeed, it continues to attract considerable attention in mainstream academia, with Mormon and non-Mormon scholars analyzing the text from a number of vantages.15 Summarizing this body of work, Grant Hardy rightly concluded that however Joseph Smith brought it forth, “the Book of Mormon is a remarkable text, one that is worthy of serious study.”

 
Richard7 said:
Laurie F. Maffly-Kipp introduced the Penguin edition by affirming, “However one decides to think about this book, it is a fascinating tale well worth reading for a number of reasons.” And the eminent physicist and mathematician Freeman Dyson related that he personally “treasures” the Book of Mormon for its “dramatic story in a fine biblical style.”

As a classic, the multi-faceted Book of Mormon can be read not only for its valuable religious teachings or for its impact on American religious history, but also for its high literary quality and compelling narrative. This was recognized by David Noel Freedman, a widely respected non-Mormon biblical scholar, who reportedly remarked, “Mormons are very lucky. Their book is very beautiful.”14

The Book of Mormon can be studied academically as well. Indeed, it continues to attract considerable attention in mainstream academia, with Mormon and non-Mormon scholars analyzing the text from a number of vantages.15 Summarizing this body of work, Grant Hardy rightly concluded that however Joseph Smith brought it forth, “the Book of Mormon is a remarkable text, one that is worthy of serious study.”

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The Book of Mormon completely contridicts Joseph Smith and completely agrees with Creeds other than the modalism taught in it

Joseph Smith Jr did teach Modalism:

Luke 10:

23 All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. JST



Mosiah 15

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.



Mosiah 16:
15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
 
Richard7 said:
1. Could an uneducated young person, in something like 65 working days, actually produce a 500+ page history of ancient people, with complex, flawlessly interwoven plot lines, elaborate cultural and technical detail, and amazing theological and spiritual richness? And (most impressive of all) could he do it by dictating to a scribe while looking into a stone placed in the bottom of a hat? Can you even imagine doing that yourself? Or, if you’re not feeling quite that ambitious, try something simpler. Try dictating, with eyes closed, 77 long verses of spiritual allegory based on expert olive tree horticulture (Jacob 5). And remember . . . you’ve never seen an olive tree or known an olive farmer in your life.

2. Would it be possible for that uneducated young man to include in his dictation ancient Hebrew idioms and and sophisticated literary structures like chiasmus?
3. How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, including exquisite detail of the Arabian Peninsula, where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes things about that region that were not known in the western world.
4. How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 names in the Book of Mormon, most of them verifiably Semitic?
5. Why would the witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the gold plates never deny their witness, even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith and the church? With so many people involved, could a hoax of this magnitude go uncovered.
You don’t have a good answer to those questions? So maybe you admit that Joseph Smith could not have written this book. But where did it come from? Maybe Satan put him up to it . . . but then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ, a book that does nothing but promote faith in Christ and righteous living? Didn’t Jesus say that a house divided against itself would fall (Matthew 12:25).

Book of Mormon

Only by the HG who can and will witness to us, that Jesus is Lord and Savior, crucified and resurrected on the third day... By the Holy Ghost, we know it is true, but we only come to that truth if we seek it.
forums.carm.org
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Joseph Smith was not the idiot that you try to make him out to be. He was just a con artist. And very good at it.
 
Richard7 said:
Laurie F. Maffly-Kipp introduced the Penguin edition by affirming, “However one decides to think about this book, it is a fascinating tale well worth reading for a number of reasons.” And the eminent physicist and mathematician Freeman Dyson related that he personally “treasures” the Book of Mormon for its “dramatic story in a fine biblical style.”

As a classic, the multi-faceted Book of Mormon can be read not only for its valuable religious teachings or for its impact on American religious history, but also for its high literary quality and compelling narrative. This was recognized by David Noel Freedman, a widely respected non-Mormon biblical scholar, who reportedly remarked, “Mormons are very lucky. Their book is very beautiful.”14

The Book of Mormon can be studied academically as well. Indeed, it continues to attract considerable attention in mainstream academia, with Mormon and non-Mormon scholars analyzing the text from a number of vantages.15 Summarizing this body of work, Grant Hardy rightly concluded that however Joseph Smith brought it forth, “the Book of Mormon is a remarkable text, one that is worthy of serious study.”

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A “fascinating tale” or “dramatic story.” I enjoy reading some fiction too. And that’s all it is… fiction.
 
brotherofJared said:
I know. In English, that means they are also separate and distinct beings, like you and I are both separate and distinct. We're both persons and beings, just like God and Jesus are both persons and beings. That's not hard to grasp but I'll bet you'll figure out a way to make a mess of it

I have no problem with the idea that they are separate and distinct. I already know they are, both physically and spiritually.

The idea that the person can be separated from the being is a technical distinction created to support the philosophies of men.



This then is again skewed by your definition of a person. It is not so skewed by members of our church. We understand that a person is a being. You all have made your own vernacular to create an invented object of worship not found in the Bible.
Click to expand...
You have no clue what you are talking about ​
 
Magdalena said:
Joseph Smith was not the idiot that you try to make him out to be. He was just a con artist. And very good at it.
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Joseph Smith must have been a genius... chuckle.​

over 500 pages, translated in 90 days and witnessed by 11 others... yep, would love to see a con artist to that.... con artist are always outed.
JS and the Church and Priesthood he helped restore still stand today... not one person has been able to bring it down... hmm
 
The Prophet said:
The Book of Mormon completely contridicts Joseph Smith and completely agrees with Creeds other than the modalism taught in it
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Is that you speculating again or do you have some facts and evidence to provide....


The Prophet said:
Joseph Smith Jr did teach Modalism:
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We teach distinct personages, that is not Modalism...


The Prophet said:
Luke 10:

23 All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. JST



Mosiah 15

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.



Mosiah 16:
15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
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Very good, I believe all the above and teach it also...
 

Matching geographical locations in the Old World with locations described in the Book of Mormon​

There is simply no way that Joseph could have obtained enough information about Arabia to fabricate more than a minute fraction of the voyage described in First Nephi​

By describing in such precise detail a fertile Arabian coastal location, as well as the route to get there from Jerusalem (complete with directions and even a place-name en route), Joseph Smith put his prophetic credibility very much on the line. Could this young, untraveled farmer in rural New York somehow have known about a fertile site on the coast of Arabia? Could a map or some writing other than the Nephite record have been a source for him? The answer is a clear no. Long after the 1830 publication of the Book of Mormon, maps of Arabia continued to show the eastern coastline and interior as unknown, unexplored territory. In fact, until the advent of satellite mapping in recent decades, even quite modern maps have misplaced toponyms and ignored or distorted major features of the terrain.
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  1. Warren P. Aston and Michaela Knoth Aston, In the Footsteps of Lehi: New Evidence for Lehi's Journey across Arabia to Bountiful (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1994), 29. ISBN 0875798470
 
Richard7 said:
You and others will continue to deny as many other will continue to read and pray to know if its true.... it's a choice...
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No, it’s a farce. And it continues to lead people away from Christ. You can’t follow Him and false prophets at the same time.
 
Richard7 said:

Joseph Smith must have been a genius... chuckle.​

over 500 pages, translated in 90 days and witnessed by 11 others... yep, would love to see a con artist to that.... con artist are always outed.
JS and the Church and Priesthood he helped restore still stand today... not one person has been able to bring it down... hmm
Click to expand...
There will always be people who choose to believe con artists and false prophets. And there are many others who recognize them at first, and don’t get involved. And others who finally do see the truth, and leave mormonism.
 
Richard7 said:
Care to explain the how of three in one... take your time...
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2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. Joseph Smith translation

Moses 1:6

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.



COUNSEL GIVEN BY PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.

(General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)
 
The Prophet said:
2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. Joseph Smith translation

Moses 1:6

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.



COUNSEL GIVEN BY PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.

(General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)
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Yep, we also teach all of the above and have no problems with it... as I have explained plenty of times already...
 
Magdalena said:
There will always be people who choose to believe con artists and false prophets. And there are many others who recognize them at first, and don’t get involved. And others who finally do see the truth, and leave mormonism.
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And we see so many of those Evangelical Con Artist, big cars, big jets and big mega churches... hilarious!
 
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