CrowCross
Well-known member
What resurrection are the mormons part of?
Born Again--the Early Church Fathers and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints agree
- Thread starter dberrie2020
- Start date
organgrinder
Well-known member
You can't even explain what the Gospel is so how can you even attempt to comment on anything regarding it? Your response in a thread about defining the Gospel was "anything that leads to eternal life". That isn't the Gospel. So far you have been absolutely clueless, which is why I don't respond to your scripture snippets. You are contextually destitute.
dberrie2020
Super Member
I'm not really interested in your personal slants--but I do believe what the scriptures testify to:
Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16---King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
organgrinder
Well-known member
You can't explain the Gospel. Since you can't, you have no real business pretending you are capable of commenting on it. It falls on deaf ears. You can cut and paste snippets of scripture but can't plainly tell anyone what the Gospel consists of. For somebody who allegedly claims to have the "fullness" of the restored Gospel, you certainly have an uncanny inability to explain the Gospel. I wonder why that is.
The Gospel isn't "anything that leads to eternal life". I hope lurkers take notice. There was an entire thread entitled What is the Gospel according to Mormons. Check it out and see the squirming and inability to answer and divert. After 32 PAGES there finally was an answer... but it wasn't the biblical Gospel. Not even close. What was copied from the church site emphatically shows Mormon leadership does not know what the Gospel is or how to actually embrace it.
Christians can answer the question and there was a thread on that, also. However, Mormons can't-- or won't-- answer it. May the Mormon Gospel it is too complex. The biblical Gospel of Jesus is quite simple for it rea;ly is Good News.
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dberrie2020
Super Member
Organ, again--I'm not interested in your personal slants nor your straw man polemics.
I believe the scriptures to be true, and you have skirted engagement of their testimonies:
Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16---King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
That links repentance and water baptism with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
What is there about God extending His salvational grace of the forgiveness of sins to them which repent and are baptized--which isn't good news, or not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
That it violates your theology isn't proof the above scriptures aren't good news, and a part of the Gospel, even the very beginning of the gospel.
Care to engage that?
organgrinder
Well-known member
Explain the Gospel, dberrie. Snippets are not the Gospel. You had great difficulty in the other thread and that hasn't changed.
As a Mormon, give me an explanation of the Gospel that is clear and understandable. That should be easy enough. Why should I get excited about what the Gospel is if you can't even explain it? If you can't explain it, why should anyone care what you say or write about it? You claim this is a strawman polemic, yet a clear understanding of the Gospel is central to any discussion we have here. You post biblical scriptures, often without any explanation and talk all around the Gospel but fail every time to tell us what the Gospel is. You did that in the "What is the Gospel according to Mormons" thread over a year ago. So dberrie.... time to put up or be quiet.
WHAT IS THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO YOU AS A MORMON? WHAT DOES IT ENTAIL AND WHY SHOULD I OR ANYBODY ELSE CARE?
It shouldn't be that hard unless of course the Mormon Gospel is wrapped in a maze of required works and such. So....waiting.
docphin5
Well-known member
It is just what everyone has been telling you, the water baptism is the outward sign of the inner repentance from doing bad deeds. The Good News is NOT that we can be dunked under water but that we can have a change of heart. And it is the inner change that is pleasing to God. Water has zero efficacy towards salvation. It is merely the outward sign of an inner change.
You cannot take one verse out of context and build a whole theological system out of it as you have done. If John did require people to be baptized then Paul qualifies that as an outward sign of the inner transformation. IOW there are more details or explanations that fill in the gaps of why specific people did the things they did.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
I don't believe anyone has argued that water baptism brings about a change in heart. Specifically, it brings about a remission of sins. I think the scriptures are pretty clear on that point.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
I don't believe an inner change is good enough. There is an integral component that you seem to be avoiding. What does it mean to believe in Christ to take his name upon you? Why did Jesus insist on being baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" and you don't need it? Are you better than Christ?
He was very clear when speaking to Nicodemus. No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again of water and the spirit. This is far more than a simple outward expression. In fact, the inner change that is pleasing to God is that we are humble enough to accept this seemingly ridiculous ordinance (a lot could be said about the abuse this ordinance has received, everything from not being needed to being damned for all eternity for not getting it. I don't want to go into detail on it except to say Jesus was very clear that if you don't receive it, you can't enter the kingdom of God).
dberrie2020
Super Member
There isn't the first engagement of the posted scriptures in your retort. Not one, even though the scriptures plainly state repentance and water baptism was the very beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ:
Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Again--if you want to have a complete synopsis of the gospel:
Matthew 4:4---King James Version
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
dberrie2020
Super Member
What about what the scriptures have been telling us?
Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16---King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
The scriptures testify repentance and water baptism was for God's grace of the remission of sins.
We can experience both. One does not preclude the other.
That isn't the testimony of the Savior:
Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Why do the verses above amount to a single verse?
And why does your theology take zero verses and build a "theological system" out of it ---somehow cover up or cancel out the Biblical testimony found in the posted scriptures above?
You are aware the Early Church Fathers, for centuries--believed water baptism was connected to being born again--and no man could enter into heaven without it--if they had reached an age of accountability?
ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)
Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)
================================================== ========
ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)
================================================== ======================
TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)
A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)
...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)
================================================== ======================
RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)
But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)
organgrinder
Well-known member
The beginning of the Gospel is not the Gospel. I pity you. If you were stopped on the street and someone asked you what the Gospel is, you would give that person these answers? You are really clueless, dberrie.
docphin5
Well-known member
What!? You should review the condemnation Jesus throws at the Pharisees for their emphasis on outward rituals.
He was baptised because his predecessor required it, not for salvation, but to identify himself in fulfillment of the community’s prophecy. The baptizer said that the next messianic figure would be baptized into his same community.
It is just weird how we can take outward rituals and make waayyy more of them than they were intended to be. For example, circumcision, animal sacrifice, water baptism, food purity, solemn feasts, etc.
I know that outward fleshy rituals have no efficacy towards salvation according to Paul’s entire ministry explained in his letters.
Nope, born of spirit.
Nope. You have convinced yourself it is to satisy the requirements of your sect of Christianity that has returned to rituals as a means of salvation, like Judaizers did 2000 thousand years ago.
Nope, God does not require fleshy rituals for salvation but self appointed priests do in order to make an impression upon others and form another party of Christ (as if the hundred different sects was not enough already).
You guys do not drink caffeine as a litmus test to your faithfulness to Mormonism. It has NOTHING to do with salvation but everything to do with subordination to the self proclaimed priests of your religion.
It is your identity. I get it. Peruse the forums and most people are defending their identity. A hundred different parties each defending who they think they are but Very few are defending the truth.
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docphin5
Well-known member
Right, repentance from sinning is a requirement. Do not read more into it than there is. Water baptism is the sign of that repentance.
Acts of the Apostles is essentially historical fiction. Not only does it contradict Pauls letters it is full of myths and superstitions in order to glorify Paul and Peter. I would not fall on my sword over anything written in it,
Believing is key. Do not make more of water baptism than it is. Historically, water baptism was an outward ritual identifying those who had joined ”The Way.” It symbolized rebirth into the kingdom of God. There is no reason to make more of it than that.
Read Paul’s letters. He says no outward rituals are necessary. Otherwise we would still be required to sacrifice animals, be circumcised, practice food purity, etc. Paul abrogated ALL outward fleshy rituals for salvation. But if people do them merely for their symbolic value then its ok. That was their intended purpose and ONLY purpose. But humans always take things too far. It is our weakness.
Many of the ECF were defending orthodoxy so I do not put much weight on what they said. Irenaeus was a parisan, dogmatic Catholic who twisted scriptures for his own purpose. His analysis of gnostic Christians is very one-sided and inaccurate.
The Homilies are a novel under the genre of romantic fantasy. I would not fall on my sword over fantasy. Have you read them to the end? Simon warps his face, clement finds his long lost mother. Romantic fantasy.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Could you explain why the beginning of the gospel isn't the gospel?
Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
dberrie2020
Super Member
I see where you are coming from now. You cancel out what is testified to in the Biblical NT--and make up your own Christianity. Welcome to the critics club here.
organgrinder
Well-known member
Can you explain why you can't understand a simple sentence? What you quoted starts as "the beginning" of the Gospel. That isn't the Gospel.
Tell us, dberrie, you have soda with someone on an airplane and engage in a conversation. He ask you "what is the Gospel?" What do you actually SAY to that person to explain the Gospel (as you as a Mormon understand it.) What do you tell him? Go to the church web site and look it up? Get water baptized for sins? What is it you tell that person that shows you actually understand what the Gospel is?
I am convinced you can't do it because you neither know the Mormon Gospel well enough to communicate it to someone nor could you explain the Christian Gospel. Why do I say this? You have demonstrated it over and over time and again. Pretty pathetic for someone who is allegedly a leader of some sort in your church.
Russianwolfe
Member
We are talking about what you say not what someone else thinks. And you have just done exactly what I said you would do!!! Exactly what I said you would do!!!! This Single Scripture Theology will damn you in the end. The Gospel is not a collection of single verses to establish doctrine. The Gospel as a whole must be considered before you finalize any doctrine. And you are attempting to establish a whole doctrine by considering only one verse type but ignoring other verses that only add to the doctrine. Am I a prophet for predicting what you would do? Or are you a fool for doing what I said in spite of the fact that I told you what you would do?
Russianwolfe
Member
Baptism was left out because if you don't believe, it doesn't matter if you are baptized; you won't be saved.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Organ--you believe what you will, but the beginning of the gospel, middle, end, or anything found between--is still the gospel.
Attempting to disqualify what the scriptures describe as the beginning of the gospel, because it violates your theology, and that of the critics here--isn't what I call belief in the testimony of the Biblical scriptures.
Again--I believe what the scriptures testify to:
Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16---King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
You can criticize me all you want, but your argument is with the scriptures, not me.
I would start with what the Biblical text starts with:
Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Which I believe is a manifestation of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
If you are looking for a comprehensive definition of what the gospel entails--then I would refer you to this testimony:
Matthew 4:4---King James Version
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Organ--the critics here reject all the individual components of the gospel, and declare it finished with a faith without works, as far as obtaining eternal life goes.
That's like saying all that is needed to obtain a doctorate degree is to get an education.
It's a strait and narrow way which leadeth to life, not a destination without travel.
What I consider pathetic is someone who claims to be Christian--and yet--denies the very testimony presented by the scriptures themselves:
Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.