Born Again

civic

Well-known member
Jesus clearly stated to Nicodemus that No one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, born of the Spirit.

So if Jesus words are TRUE ( and the are ) and if a person believes no one was born again until Pentecost they have placed themselves into a corner they cannot escape from, here is why !

In taking that position this would eliminate all the following people from being in Gods Kingdom..

Abraham
Isaac
Joseph
Jacob
Moses
Joshua
Elijah
Elisha
David
Nathan
Isaiah
John the Baptist
All the other OT Prophets as well.

And we know from Peter in his 1st epistle that he proclaimed that the Spirit of Christ was IN THEM ( the O.T. ) Prophets and they looked forward to Christs Coming as the suffering Messiah

1 Peter 1:11
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

So there is the dilemma one finds themselves in when they make such a stand and limit how God can and cannot work because of a doctrine they believe to be true when in realty you think it though to its natural results and consequences leaves out all the OT saints from the kingdom of God and excludes them since they were not " born again" .

Your thoughts much appreciated whether you are an A or a C.

hope this helps !!!
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Jesus clearly stated to Nicodemus that No one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, born of the Spirit.

So if Jesus words are TRUE ( and the are ) and if a person believes no one was born again until Pentecost they have placed themselves into a corner they cannot escape from, here is why !

In taking that position this would eliminate all the following people from being in Gods Kingdom..

Abraham
Isaac
Joseph
Jacob
Moses
Joshua
Elijah
Elisha
David
Nathan
Isaiah
John the Baptist
All the other OT Prophets as well.
...
How many of them entered the kingdom of God before Christ's resurrection?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Jesus clearly stated to Nicodemus that No one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, born of the Spirit.

So if Jesus words are TRUE ( and the are ) and if a person believes no one was born again until Pentecost they have placed themselves into a corner they cannot escape from, here is why !

In taking that position this would eliminate all the following people from being in Gods Kingdom..

Abraham
Isaac
Joseph
Jacob
Moses
Joshua
Elijah
Elisha
David
Nathan
Isaiah
John the Baptist
All the other OT Prophets as well.

And we know from Peter in his 1st epistle that he proclaimed that the Spirit of Christ was IN THEM ( the O.T. ) Prophets and they looked forward to Christs Coming as the suffering Messiah

1 Peter 1:11
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

So there is the dilemma one finds themselves in when they make such a stand and limit how God can and cannot work because of a doctrine they believe to be true when in realty you think it though to its natural results and consequences leaves out all the OT saints from the kingdom of God and excludes them since they were not " born again" .

Your thoughts much appreciated whether you are an A or a C.

hope this helps !!!
As always, thanks for your Lists and Lessons...
 

civic

Well-known member
How many of them entered the kingdom of God before Christ's resurrection?
thats not the question, the question is are they in the kingdom of God (kingdom of the Lord 1 Chron 29:11, Daniel 3:33 His kingdom is eternal) )now and if so how did they get into the kingdom unless they were born again ?
 

civic

Well-known member
As always, thanks for your Lists and Lessons...
We can already see someone reading doctrine into scripture that cannot accept Gods Kingdom is Eternal- its the same Kingdom in both Testaments with the same King over it, He just happened to become the Kingdom Incarnate in the N.T.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
We can already see someone reading doctrine into scripture that cannot accept Gods Kingdom is Eternal- its the same Kingdom in both Testaments with the same King over it, He just happened to become the Kingdom Incarnate in the N.T.
He tells me that he does not believe in Salvation by Prevenient Free Will, but when he talks to someone else like you, It seems that he does...
 

civic

Well-known member
Plus if we throw into the mix the Davidic Covenant and his everlasting Kingdom and all the promises derived from it with its fulfillment in Christ. You cannot escape the fact the kingdom of God/Lord is the same kingdom just as that salvation by faith is the same in both testaments and grace is the same, His mercy the same- The God of the OT is the same in the NT. He is Immutable and so is His everlasting Kingdom.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Jesus clearly stated to Nicodemus that No one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, born of the Spirit.

So if Jesus words are TRUE ( and the are ) and if a person believes no one was born again until Pentecost they have placed themselves into a corner they cannot escape from, here is why !

In taking that position this would eliminate all the following people from being in Gods Kingdom..

Abraham
Isaac
Joseph
Jacob
Moses
Joshua
Elijah
Elisha
David
Nathan
Isaiah
John the Baptist
All the other OT Prophets as well.

No it wouldn't. You completely forgot about the resurrection of the dead.

You also forgot about this:

Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, Hebrews 10:19

13 All these [OT saints] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth..... 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11

And we know from Peter in his 1st epistle that he proclaimed that the Spirit of Christ was IN THEM ( the O.T. ) Prophets and they looked forward to Christs Coming as the suffering Messiah

Prophets. Were all Old Testament saints PROPHETS?

1 Peter 1:11
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

So there is the dilemma one finds themselves in when they make such a stand and limit how God can and cannot work because of a doctrine they believe to be true when in realty you think it though to its natural results and consequences leaves out all the OT saints from the kingdom of God and excludes them since they were not " born again" .

Your thoughts much appreciated whether you are an A or a C.

hope this helps !!!
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
... if so how did they get into the kingdom unless they were born again ?
Who is denying that? The question is:
Who is born again; those who receive Jesus.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Jesus clearly stated to Nicodemus that No one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, born of the Spirit.
True statement. The primary attribute of being "BORN AGAIN" is that the Holy Spirit INDWELLS a person. That actually FIRST happened as recorded in John 20:22, NOT Pentecost which was the Holy Spirit ON people that already had the Holy Spirit IN them. An "Enduement" is EXTERNAL Clothing.
So if Jesus words are TRUE ( and the are ) and if a person believes no one was born again until Pentecost they have placed themselves into a corner they cannot escape from, here is why !

In taking that position this would eliminate all the following people from being in Gods Kingdom.. (list follows)
Which is also true. nobody in the "list" was EVER "in God's Kingdom" - until after the Ressurection, when their faith in God to deliver them came to fruition, and Jesus led them home from from the place of the DEAD - "Abraham's Bosom". The GOSPEL is the "Good News" that what God had promised - was now available to humans in Jesus.

NOBODY before the Resurrection was indwelled by the Holy Spirit (Born Again). BUT the Holy Spirit CAME ON many of them. -

Jhn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

THAT happened at John 20:22 for the first time.

The O.T. Saints Had the Holy Spirit ON them, but they were ALL still in their SIN and hadn't been cleansed - YET.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Who is denying that? The question is:
Who is born again; those who receive Jesus.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
I think civic is talking about Regeneration occurring in the Old Covenant, but differently. The difference is that for the Old Covenant Saints, the Spirit would come and go; but for the New Covenant Saints, the Spirit would come and stay...

Do you believe that Jesus meant the Spirit would come and go for you and for me? I say that Jesus didn't mean that for us, so he meant it for his contemporaries; the Old Covenant Saints...


The New Birth occurred to Christ's Contemporaries; those who were outside of the New Covenant! This is a very hard Saying for many Posters here...
 
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civic

Well-known member
I think civic is talking about Regeneration occurring in the Old Covenant, but differently. The difference is that for the Old Covenant Saints, the Spirit would come and go; but for the New Covenant Saints, the Spirit would come and stay...

Do you believe that Jesus meant the Spirit would come and go for you and for me? I say that Jesus didn't mean that for us, so he meant it for his contemporaries; the Old Covenant Saints...
yes take a look at this Q/A and dialogue from a conference.

HORTON: I just wrote a book on the Holy Spirit, and it really enriched my own experience of the Spirit as well as thoughts about questions like this; and it made me more uncertain of the answers that I had for it. Dr. Ferguson has written on this really well in his book on the Holy Spirit.

There’s a danger on one hand to so defend the unity of the one covenant of grace that we don’t recognize the peaks and the valleys, the differences from old covenant to new covenant. The other danger is the opposite danger of not recognizing the unity of that one covenant.

In that unity of the one covenant, if David is confessing his sin, he’s prompted by the Holy Spirit, he’s repentant, he’s trusting in Christ, he’s born again. He is a justified, converted believer.

And yet you have to recognize that when John tells us that the Spirit had not yet been poured out (John 7:39)—and even when you get to John 20, and you have a sort of mini-Pentecost there with the disciples—it’s clear that that’s not the big thing that happens in Acts 2. That’s why they are to go and wait for the Holy Spirit to be poured out.

This the prophets anticipated. None of it had been fulfilled in Jesus’ ministry, and I think that’s why Jesus says, “Greater things shall you do when the Holy Spirit comes, when I am ascended and the Holy Spirit comes” (John 14:12). Because it’s not just that the speaker has to be God, but the one opening our hearts to embrace the speech has to be God.

The outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost was a decisive event in the history of redemption that had never happened before. Ever since we have been living in a completely different era, and yet it is one in which we share with our Old Testament brothers and sisters faith, repentance, and renewal.

Now what exactly does that mean? And to what extent was the Holy Spirit upon them but maybe not indwelling them? All sorts of questions arise. But it seems to me that the New Testament makes it pretty clear that the Holy Spirit came in such a way upon the people of God that it fulfilled the request of Moses, which was that all of the people would be filled with the Spirit of God (Num. 11:29). That had never been done in the history of redemption, but finally at Pentecost that gift of the Spirit came upon the church.

NICHOLS: I think that’s helpful. I think we also need to look at John 3 and Nicodemus. This is always very fascinating. You’ve got John 6, where John gives that editorial, “the Spirit has not yet been given.” But then you have John 3, where Jesus says to Nicodemus, “You should have known this. You should know that you need to be born of the Spirit.”

So there is this newness to Pentecost, but also this continuity, this unity. And looking at those two texts, which are just three chapters apart, is helpful for us to put that in a good perspective.

THOMAS: The answer is yes and no.

I think if you’re asking the question, “How is a person under the old covenant saved?” then the answer has to be, “In precisely the same way as a person in the new covenant is saved: by the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, producing faith and repentance in a promised Christ that was seen in type and shadow.”

But there is Psalm 51:11: “Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.”

So, yes, Pentecost is epochal. It’s a redemptively significant moment, a unique moment in redemptive history. So there’s something about the fullness of the Spirit and perhaps the experience of that fullness under the new covenant that is different from the old covenant.

But if the question is, “Were Old Testament saints indwelt by the Spirit?” I think I would have to say yes.

Lightly edited for readability, this is a transcript of Michael Horton’s, Stephen Nichols’, and Derek Thomas’ answers given at our 2017 National Conference.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
I think civic is talking about Regeneration occurring in the Old Covenant, but differently. The difference is that for the Old Covenant Saints, the Spirit would come and go; but for the New Covenant Saints, the Spirit would come and stay...
Is regeneration assumed in the OT; or, is there old testament scripture of anyone being regenerated prior to Christ's resurrection?


Do you believe that Jesus meant the Spirit would come and go for you and for me?...
Is that not what regeneration entails, sealing and earnest of the Spirit; which did not occur until after the resurrection?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Is regeneration assumed in the OT; or, is there old testament scripture of anyone being regenerated prior to Christ's resurrection?



Is that not what regeneration entails, sealing and earnest of the Spirit; which did not occur until after the resurrection?
I didn't feel the need to search the Old Testament for examples of the New Birth, since Jesus taught it to us; since Nicodemus didn't know it, none of them may have known it. But I will look for you...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
yes take a look at this Q/A and dialogue from a conference.

HORTON: I just wrote a book on the Holy Spirit, and it really enriched my own experience of the Spirit as well as thoughts about questions like this; and it made me more uncertain of the answers that I had for it. Dr. Ferguson has written on this really well in his book on the Holy Spirit.

There’s a danger on one hand to so defend the unity of the one covenant of grace that we don’t recognize the peaks and the valleys, the differences from old covenant to new covenant. The other danger is the opposite danger of not recognizing the unity of that one covenant.

In that unity of the one covenant, if David is confessing his sin, he’s prompted by the Holy Spirit, he’s repentant, he’s trusting in Christ, he’s born again. He is a justified, converted believer.

And yet you have to recognize that when John tells us that the Spirit had not yet been poured out (John 7:39)—and even when you get to John 20, and you have a sort of mini-Pentecost there with the disciples—it’s clear that that’s not the big thing that happens in Acts 2. That’s why they are to go and wait for the Holy Spirit to be poured out.

This the prophets anticipated. None of it had been fulfilled in Jesus’ ministry, and I think that’s why Jesus says, “Greater things shall you do when the Holy Spirit comes, when I am ascended and the Holy Spirit comes” (John 14:12). Because it’s not just that the speaker has to be God, but the one opening our hearts to embrace the speech has to be God.

The outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost was a decisive event in the history of redemption that had never happened before. Ever since we have been living in a completely different era, and yet it is one in which we share with our Old Testament brothers and sisters faith, repentance, and renewal.

Now what exactly does that mean? And to what extent was the Holy Spirit upon them but maybe not indwelling them? All sorts of questions arise. But it seems to me that the New Testament makes it pretty clear that the Holy Spirit came in such a way upon the people of God that it fulfilled the request of Moses, which was that all of the people would be filled with the Spirit of God (Num. 11:29). That had never been done in the history of redemption, but finally at Pentecost that gift of the Spirit came upon the church.

NICHOLS: I think that’s helpful. I think we also need to look at John 3 and Nicodemus. This is always very fascinating. You’ve got John 6, where John gives that editorial, “the Spirit has not yet been given.” But then you have John 3, where Jesus says to Nicodemus, “You should have known this. You should know that you need to be born of the Spirit.”

So there is this newness to Pentecost, but also this continuity, this unity. And looking at those two texts, which are just three chapters apart, is helpful for us to put that in a good perspective.

THOMAS: The answer is yes and no.

I think if you’re asking the question, “How is a person under the old covenant saved?” then the answer has to be, “In precisely the same way as a person in the new covenant is saved: by the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, producing faith and repentance in a promised Christ that was seen in type and shadow.”

But there is Psalm 51:11: “Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.”

So, yes, Pentecost is epochal. It’s a redemptively significant moment, a unique moment in redemptive history. So there’s something about the fullness of the Spirit and perhaps the experience of that fullness under the new covenant that is different from the old covenant.

But if the question is, “Were Old Testament saints indwelt by the Spirit?” I think I would have to say yes.

Lightly edited for readability, this is a transcript of Michael Horton’s, Stephen Nichols’, and Derek Thomas’ answers given at our 2017 National Conference.
A little rabbit trail for a minute. It sounds like you are talking about Presbyterian Covenant Theology? I myself like Baptist Covenant Theology, IE the Old and the New are truly two different Covenants. But what you say about the Davidic Covenant overlapping the Old and the New sounds like what Presbyterians say; that the Old and New are One Covenant. I always thought that sounds just like Premillenial Dispensation; one Covenant with 7 Dispensations. Is your source Presbyterian or are you Presbyterian? Either way, having the Davidic Covenant overlap like that seems to support Presbyterians...
 

civic

Well-known member
1 Sam 10:9
When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart. And all these signs came to pass that day.

If a new heart given by God is not regeneration, then nothing is.
 

civic

Well-known member
A little rabbit trail for a minute. It sounds like you are talking about Presbyterian Covenant Theology? I myself like Baptist Covenant Theology, IE the Old and the New are truly two different Covenants. But what you say about the Davidic Covenant overlapping the Old and the New sounds like what Presbyterians say; that the Old and New are One Covenant. I always thought that sounds just like Premillenial Dispensation; one Covenant with 7 Dispensations. Is your source Presbyterian or are you Presbyterian? Either way, having the Davidic Covenant overlap like that seems to support Presbyterians...
its from ligonier

 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
its from ligonier

Probably Presbyterian then. I'll read it. The only real difference between Presbyterians and Baptists is if the Old and New Covenants are one or two Covenants...
 
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