Born Sinless?

BornAgainRN

Active member
I would add:

Also notice too, the word Kecharitomene is used as a name. Gabriel is saying "Hail Kecharitomene", using the word to describe both name and identify who Mary is, "one who has been made graced." "Hail", is a greeting used in the courts of aristocratic kings and queens of the day. Consequently, Gabriel is acknowledging her superior social status among those in heaven - so how much must do the angels revere Mary then, and now? No one else in scripture is addressed in this manner.

JoeT
The angel Gabriel is simply using "Hail!" as a simple greeting. It simply means "rejoice" (ex: Matthew 5:12). Gabriel does not view Mary in any more heavenly "regal" manner than he does anyone else. Regardless, my comment was about the use of kecharitomeno used in Tobit, which is the masculine form of kecharitomene used in Luke's Gospel when Gabriel greets Mary. My whole point is that if kecharitomene supports Mary being sinless & immaculately conceived, then does kecharitomeno in Tobit support the man being addressed this way as being sinless & immaculately conceived too?
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
The angel Gabriel is simply using "Hail!" as a simple greeting. It simply means "rejoice" (ex: Matthew 5:12). Gabriel does not view Mary in any more heavenly "regal" manner than he does anyone else. Regardless, my comment was about the use of kecharitomeno used in Tobit, which is the masculine form of kecharitomene used in Luke's Gospel when Gabriel greets Mary. My whole point is that if kecharitomene supports Mary being sinless & immaculately conceived, then does kecharitomeno in Tobit support the man being addressed this way as being sinless & immaculately conceived too?
Quick answer: No, because the RCC has not declared it so. 🙄

When your faith is in the RCC organization, logic and reason are meaningless - you go with what your Masters say, at all costs. 😢

--Rich
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
A "Normal Human Woman" does when: Luk 1:35

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The only thing SPECIAL about Mary was that she was the one God CHOSE to bear His SON.
“[…] what are all the maids, servants, masters, mistresses, princes, kings, and monarchs on earth compared with the Virgin Mary, who was born of royal lineage, and withal became the mother of God, the noblest woman on earth? After Christ, she is the most precious jewel in all Christendom. And this noblest woman on earth is to serve me and us all by bearing this child and giving him to be our own! […] True it is, she is worthy of praise and can never be praised and extolled enough. For this honor is so great and wonderful, to be chosen before all women on earth to become the mother of this child.” Martin Luther, 1531.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Since the Roman Catholic "Blessed virgin thing" is as phony as a $3 bill, trying to understand it is totally unimportant.

Mary (the real one, Jesus' Mom) was a totally normal Jewish gal, who was born, lived, and died like every other normal Jewish Gal except that she also miraculously gave birth to Jesus, who is God's ONLY begotten SON, and raised Him, in proper Jewish fashion, to adulthood along with her other children..
"All generations will call me blessed", except Bob.
 

mica

Well-known member
“[…] what are all the maids, servants, masters, mistresses, princes, kings, and monarchs on earth compared with the Virgin Mary, who was born of royal lineage, and withal became the mother of God, the noblest woman on earth? After Christ, she is the most precious jewel in all Christendom. And this noblest woman on earth is to serve me and us all by bearing this child and giving him to be our own! […] True it is, she is worthy of praise and can never be praised and extolled enough. For this honor is so great and wonderful, to be chosen before all women on earth to become the mother of this child.” Martin Luther, 1531.
when did she give birth to God? before the beginning of time? before she was born? before her ancestors were born?

you must be quoting the catholic Luther, not the heretic Luther.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
I don't. But Catholics & Eastern Orthodox do, and Catholics use this Greek word as evidence for Mary's sinlessness...which is why I brought up the fact the masculine form of the word is used in Tobit to describe a man.
So if you don't accept your own evidence, why should I?
 

mica

Well-known member
mica said:
you continually deny God's word.
From the one ^ who cancels Jesus' entire public ministry.
Huge denial.
I did? when did I do that? post whatever it was I said that you didn't understand...

more than likely that's just another catholic 2 step to detour from my post above.

btw, I don't have the magic power to do that. check with the rcc, it does claim to have the power to cancel / change what He did and said. it does apply His power to itself.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
“[…] what are all the maids, servants, masters, mistresses, princes, kings, and monarchs on earth compared with the Virgin Mary, who was born of royal lineage, and withal became the mother of God, the noblest woman on earth? After Christ, she is the most precious jewel in all Christendom. And this noblest woman on earth is to serve me and us all by bearing this child and giving him to be our own! […] True it is, she is worthy of praise and can never be praised and extolled enough. For this honor is so great and wonderful, to be chosen before all women on earth to become the mother of this child.” Martin Luther, 1531.
CHuckle - Luther was an educated and thoroughly indoctrinated CATHOLIC PRIEST - who loved the Catholic church, and desperately wanted to correct it's fundamental ERROR. It's a miracle they didn't murder him for disagreeing with them like they did others.

The only thing that Luther REALLY GOT RIGHT - was Eph 2:8,9.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
I call the REAL Mary, mother of Jesus BLESSED, but I DON"T "Worship her" as Catholics do. Any Catholic who tells you they "Don't WORSHIP Mary" will probably lie to you about other stuff too.

It's the Roman Catholic "Blessed Virgin thing" that I ignore.
Catholics do not worship her. Even renegade Martin Luther understood that she was worthy of honor more than any other human being because of her role as Mother of God.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Catholics do not worship her. Even renegade Martin Luther understood that she was worthy of honor more than any other human being because of her role as Mother of God.
You keep telling yourself that with you hula dulia thing. But if it looks like worship then it is worship. Worship is a synonym for venerate. You do more than honour her as Jesus' mother.
 

balshan

Well-known member
“[…] what are all the maids, servants, masters, mistresses, princes, kings, and monarchs on earth compared with the Virgin Mary, who was born of royal lineage, and withal became the mother of God, the noblest woman on earth? After Christ, she is the most precious jewel in all Christendom. And this noblest woman on earth is to serve me and us all by bearing this child and giving him to be our own! […] True it is, she is worthy of praise and can never be praised and extolled enough. For this honor is so great and wonderful, to be chosen before all women on earth to become the mother of this child.” Martin Luther, 1531.
Yet scripture is clear all believers are equal.

Gal 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gen 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Acts 10:34

so Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

We are all part of God's family, we are all brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Eph 1:5

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Rom 8:15

For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!
 

balshan

Well-known member
yes, they do. i remember denying it also - when i was a catholic.
I as an RC always knew that there was supposed to be the difference. However, I always wondered how could you know the difference, what was that line, what did it look like. It looked the same.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
You hit the nail on the head once again. Jesus is the only hope. Faith is a gift. We are to only follow Jesus, not man no matter what denomination. The RCC doesn't follow Jesus, it says it does but it puts Mary and the saints before Him. The RCC Jesus stills needs Mary's permission to save people.
Again, I just don't get---and Protestants seem either unable or unwilling to explain---why they see Mary and the saints as obstacles to Christ, rather than PATHS to Christ.

Seeing Mary and the saints as obstacles to Christ makes as much sense in my mind as seeing Christ as an obstacle to the Father--rather than the one who TAKES us to the Father. Seeing Mary and the saints as in competition with Christ, in my mind makes as much sense as seeing Christ in competition with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Mary and the saints for Catholics are not obstacles to Christ, nor are they in competition with Christ. They are PATHS to Christ; the surest WAY to Christ. They magnify and reveal Christ as Christ reveals and magnifies the Father.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Again, I just don't get---and Protestants seem either unable or unwilling to explain---why they see Mary and the saints as obstacles to Christ, rather than PATHS to Christ.

Seeing Mary and the saints as obstacles to Christ makes as much sense in my mind as seeing Christ as an obstacle to the Father--rather than the one who TAKES us to the Father. Seeing Mary and the saints as in competition with Christ, in my mind makes as much sense as seeing Christ in competition with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Mary and the saints for Catholics are not obstacles to Christ, nor are they in competition with Christ. They are PATHS to Christ; the surest WAY to Christ. They magnify and reveal Christ as Christ reveals and magnifies the Father.
Oh that is easy you are so blinded by the false teachings of your institution that you cannot see the truth. There is no need for them, we are all equal. So they are not on a higher plane. Why go to the creation when you go straight to the creator. They block the view of Jesus.

Your comparison is stupid and non scriptural. BIg difference between Jesus and Mary/saints. Big difference one is scriptural and the other isn't.

John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

John 14:10

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

I don't understand how RCs cannot see the difference between Mary/saints and Jesus. One is created, one is the creator. Big difference. One is our saviour and one is not.

Mary and the saints are big obstacles. Your institution is the bad tree.
 
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