"Bring it on, Mr. President"

Whateverman

Well-known member
I don't like opinion pieces like this, not even in the opinion section of a moderately respectable media outlet. Nonetheless, it's right on the money:

Yet for all that, there is a silver lining to be found in this final act of the election. The point of rituals like the one that will take place at the Capitol on Jan. 6 is to demonstrate the power of the system under which we all live, to show us that it is larger than any one person or any one party.

That is the wall against which Trump will beat his tiny fists next week, with the help of Hawley and a few members of the House Chucklehead Caucus. For all the damage he has done to American institutions and all the systemic weaknesses he has revealed, this is one place where Trump will fail spectacularly. The ceremony will be the sight not of his deliverance but his abject defeat.

So bring it on, Mr. President, and Sen. Hawley, too. Take your spectacle of sore loserdom to the floor. Show us how pathetic you are, one more time. We’ll all watch while you make a last attempt to bend the system to your crude and selfish will. At a time of so much misery and despair, the sound of that gavel banging down will give us something to feel good about.

Pretty childish, but the author is right.
 
That is the wall against which Trump will beat his tiny fists next week, with the help of Hawley and a few members of the House Chucklehead Caucus. For all the damage he has done to American institutions and all the systemic weaknesses he has revealed, this is one place where Trump will fail spectacularly.

I read an opinion piece today saying that how next week's electoral college vote goes will determine the state of US democracy.

Let's assume a worst case scenario, and say every Republican in the House and Senate (including the VP) votes against accepting the electoral college vote. That would mean that the House would narrowly confirm that Biden won the election, and the Senate would be claiming that Trump won. As I understand it, if both the House and Senate vote against Biden, then his win would be declared invalid. So, in my hypothetical case of Republican politicians blindly supporting Trump, Biden would become President in a squeaker of a vote. If Republicans controlled both the Senate and the House, then they could legally (as I understand it) declare Trump the winner, no matter how convincing Biden's election victory was.

Hopefully it will be only a few nutcases like Hawley who vote against Biden being the winner, but in US politics you never know. During the impeachment process Republican politicians blindly voted to support Trump, so most Republican politicians have already "sold their souls to the devil". It would not be a total shock to me if they vote to throw out the election result and try to give Trump a second term.
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
I read an opinion piece today saying that how next week's electoral college vote goes will determine the state of US democracy.

Let's assume a worst case scenario, and say every Republican in the House and Senate (including the VP) votes against accepting the electoral college vote. That would mean that the House would narrowly confirm that Biden won the election, and the Senate would be claiming that Trump won. As I understand it, if both the House and Senate vote against Biden, then his win would be declared invalid. So, in my hypothetical case of Republican politicians blindly supporting Trump, Biden would become President in a squeaker of a vote. If Republicans controlled both the Senate and the House, then they could legally (as I understand it) declare Trump the winner, no matter how convincing Biden's election victory was.

Hopefully it will be only a few nutcases like Hawley who vote against Biden being the winner, but in US politics you never know. During the impeachment process Republican politicians blindly voted to support Trump, so most Republican politicians have already "sold their souls to the devil". It would not be a total shock to me if they vote to throw out the election result and try to award Trump a second term.
That's not really how it works. Both the House and the Senate have to vote to reject a certified slate of electors. The current slates of electors total up to a Biden victory. To change that, the House would have to agree to switch the slate of electors in 3 (4?) swing states. Either way, the House isn't going to reject a single slate of electors, and for good, proper reason.

It's not like the Senate would vote for Trump and the House for Biden. Both the Senate and the House vote on whether to reject a slate of electors. The result of that vote produces one result - the electors remain or are rejected - not two results, one from the House and one from the Senate.

If I'm understanding what you wrote correctly.

The only other possibility is if no one person has a majority of the electoral college, but that's not going to happen, either.
 
Same here, but I confess I now think this is pretty unlikely.

Yes, I agree. I think we have finally reached a "line in the sand" that most Republican politicians are not willing to cross in support of Trump. But I'll still be watching the proceedings with great interest, and won't be shocked if (say) 25 or 30 Republican Senators vote to disregard Biden's win. I think it will be a cause for great concern if ANY Republican Senate or House members vote against the certification of Biden's win.
 
It's not like the Senate would vote for Trump and the House for Biden. Both the Senate and the House vote on whether to reject a slate of electors. The result of that vote produces one result - the electors remain or are rejected - not two results, one from the House and one from the Senate.

Yes, I agree. The point I am making is that IF the Republicans controlled both the Senate AND the House, then they could legally reject all the Biden supporting elector slates and replace them with Trump supporting slates, thus awarding a second term to Trump.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Yes, I agree. I think we have finally reached a "line in the sand" that most Republican politicians are not willing to cross in support of Trump. But I'll still be watching the proceedings with great interest, and won't be shocked if (say) 25 or 30 Republican Senators vote to disregard Biden's win. I think it will be a cause for great concern if ANY Republican Senate or House members vote against the certification of Biden's win.
Keep in mind that this actually isn't uncommon:

In his statement, Hawley tried to portray the extraordinary move as business as usual, saying, "I will follow the same practice Democrat members of Congress have in years past," pointing to the 2004 and 2016 elections.

During the certification of the 2016 election results, several House Democrats attempted to object to the vote in a number of states, but they were ruled out of order by then-Vice President Biden, who noted that no senators had joined in their objections.

After the 2004 election, then-Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif. and Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones, D-Ohio, objected to Ohio's votes, charging there had been voter suppression because of long lines and missing voting machines in minority areas in the state.

Then-Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., said those complaints were “outrage based on fantasy conspiracies” while the Bush White House press secretary, Scott McClellan, said, “It is time to move forward and not engage in conspiracy theories or partisan politics of this nature.”

The measure failed in the Senate by a vote of 74-1 and in the House by a vote of 267-31.
I'm dismayed by Hawley and the few "Republicans" who've said they'll follow suit, but it seems like this has happened before, and pretty recently, too...
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
Yes, I agree. The point I am making is that IF the Republicans controlled both the Senate AND the House, then they could legally reject all the Biden supporting elector slates and replace them with Trump supporting slates, thus awarding a second term to Trump.
Ah, I see. Yes, that could happen. A party that controls both the House and Senate and whose candidate for President lost could steal the election. This looks like a loophole in the system that needs to be addressed in some fashion or another. Republicans should be fearful that the Democrats could do this as well at some point in the future. It's to everyone's benefit to close this loophole.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Ah, I see. Yes, that could happen. A party that controls both the House and Senate and whose candidate for President lost could steal the election. This looks like a loophole in the system that needs to be addressed in some fashion or another. Republicans should be fearful that the Democrats could do this as well at some point in the future. It's to everyone's benefit to close this loophole.
I've been saying since the beginning of the Drumpf presidency that we need a new constitutional amendment, to further define presidential powers and limits. Last week, there was a surreal moment when - while watching CNN - I saw none other than The Mooch (Anthony Scaramucci, Drumpf's former Director of Communications [for all of 12 days]) saying the exact same thing. The country needs to shore up the holes in our founding document, to prevent the kinds of situations we've just had to endure.

I think an amendment dealing with that AND the election process makes a lot of sense. So far as I know, America's never had an administration and its political party trying to undermine American institutions. To some degree, those institutions need checks on their power, but they also need protection from anti-American undemocratic subversion, too.

I see no reason why Republicans would fail to want these same changes. There's absolutely nothing legally preventing the Democrats from behaving exactly the same way, and if that party had the popular support, Republicans would be just as helpless to stop them.
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
I've been saying since the beginning of the Drumpf presidency that we need a new constitutional amendment, to further define presidential powers and limits. Last week, there was a surreal moment when - while watching CNN - I saw none other than The Mooch (Anthony Scaramucci, Drumpf's former Director of Communications [for all of 12 days]) saying the exact same thing. The country needs to shore up the holes in our founding document, to prevent the kinds of situations we've just had to endure.

I think an amendment dealing with that AND the election process makes a lot of sense. So far as I know, America's never had an administration and its political party trying to undermine American institutions. To some degree, those institutions need checks on their power, but they also need protection from anti-American undemocratic subversion, too.

I see no reason why Republicans would fail to want these same changes. There's absolutely nothing legally preventing the Democrats from behaving exactly the same way, and if that party had the popular support, Republicans would be just as helpless to stop them.
There will be some tricky waters to navigate with the opposing party, though. For instance, take Georgia's (?) law that requires an exact match between the name on the registration and the name on the ballot. Apparently this does little to enhance election security, so removing it would expand the franchise, but Republicans are generally against this. So we need to identify, at least, those areas that Republicans would rationally (I know, I know) agree with, and start with those, like the loophole we've discussed above.
 
Yes, I agree. I think we have finally reached a "line in the sand" that most Republican politicians are not willing to cross in support of Trump.

I may be proven wrong, if the following reports are true:

"Two Republican members of the House of Representatives tell CNN that they expect at least 140 of their GOP colleagues in the House to vote against counting the electoral votes on January 6 when Congress is expected to certify President-elect Joe Biden’s victory..."

GOP SOURCE: "At least a handful" of GOP Senators could join election challenge next week; "will definitely be a spectacle"


If there are that many Republican nutcases who are willing to throw out the Presidential election result and give Trump a second term, then there is no doubt that democracy is under threat in the United States. Biden will, of course, be sworn in in January, but future election results could definitely be threatened.
 
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