But God

Carbon

Well-known member
I see everyone agrees we are saved by grace through faith. But the issue is, though they say it,
their practice and theology deny it.

Many just don’t get it. We know scripture speaks about being saved, but many don’t think they actually need to be saved. But think they need to be helped, they need good news or good advice. The gospel is just a way to have a happy life and reduce stress in life.

But that is to be expected from the dead and those who do not understand the word of God. The dead are told by many, their just sick or drowning. Jesus throws you a life preserver and all you have to do is grab it before it’s to late. Problem is, the dead don’t grab anything. They can’t, their dead.

According to scripture, your not drowning, your not sick; your dead. Your not almost dead, your dead!
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— Eph 2.
There is just no way around it! Dead is, dead.

And unbelievers are not only dead, they can do nothing about it.
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

Some think all they need to do is make a decision. Just decide to have faith and believe. They teach God uses prevenient grace to get you headed in the right direction, so you can make a choice to believe. They should stop lying to lost sinners.

But Scripture teaches:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— Eph 2.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
According to scripture, your not drowning, your not sick; your dead. Your not almost dead, your dead!
...
Jesus associated sinners with being sick.
Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I see everyone agrees we are saved by grace through faith. But the issue is, though they say it,
their practice and theology deny it.
In your opinion...


Many just don’t get it. We know scripture speaks about being saved, but many don’t think they actually need to be saved. But think they need to be helped, they need good news or good advice. The gospel is just a way to have a happy life and reduce stress in life.

But that is to be expected from the dead and those who do not understand the word of God.

But we are not talking about dead people, were talking about born again people who have a different understanding, interpretation and reading of scripture. We do not preach "they need to be helped, they need good news or good advice. The gospel is just a way to have a happy life and reduce stress in life."

The dead are told by many, their just sick or drowning. Jesus throws you a life preserver and all you have to do is grab it before it’s to late. Problem is, the dead don’t grab anything. They can’t, their dead.

In the same way that "drowning" and "throwing a life preserver" are metaphorical illustrations that have limitations to their application, the metaphor of spiritual "death" is also limited in its scope of meaning.

Physical death is separation of the spirit and the body; spiritual death is the separation of the spiritual man from harmony and relationship with the Spirit of God from which it is derived. Just as someone might say to another person, "you're dead to me!", not meaning that they, the "dead people" are now incapable of hearing or doing anything, but rather that the person to whom they are dead has refused to hear them, respond to them, or acknowledge their reality. It is a break of relationship!


According to scripture, your not drowning, your not sick; your dead. Your not almost dead, your dead!

Matt 9:12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ a For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

I hope that Jesus's words are still a part of your scriptures, Carbon!

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— Eph 2.
There is just no way around it! Dead is, dead.

Yep, we are out of relationship with God, the only source of life and peace/harmony which means we walk according to "the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience."
And unbelievers are not only dead, they can do nothing about it.
Yep, we cannot reconcile the relationship between us and God. Only the offended party can effect the restoration of a relationship!



In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4
Again, we are not talking about unbelievers, but born again people who follow the Spirit's leading.


Some think all they need to do is make a decision. Just decide to have faith and believe. They teach God uses prevenient grace to get you headed in the right direction, so you can make a choice to believe. They should stop lying to lost sinners.

But Scripture teaches:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— Eph 2.
No we do not say "all you have to do is make a decision"! We also say that we must repent, confess, and receive the grace of God through belief in his Son.

When I preach the gospel, I never, never, never (and yes, by this I mean never), say anything about Prevenient Grace or the means by which belief is made possible! Like Francis Shaeffer, I preach the deadlines of sin, and the sinfulness of man first, and the result that that condition will experience, and then about the only hope to escape this by faith in what Christ has graciously done for us.


Doug
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
In your opinion...




But we are not talking about dead people, were talking about born again people who have a different understanding, interpretation and reading of scripture. We do not preach "they need to be helped, they need good news or good advice. The gospel is just a way to have a happy life and reduce stress in life."



In the same way that "drowning" and "throwing a life preserver" are metaphorical illustrations that have limitations to their application, the metaphor of spiritual "death" is also limited in its scope of meaning.

Physical death is separation of the spirit and the body; spiritual death is the separation of the spiritual man from harmony and relationship with the Spirit of God from which it is derived. Just as someone might say to another person, "you're dead to me!", not meaning that they, the "dead people" are now incapable of hearing or doing anything, but rather that the person to whom they are dead has refused to hear them, respond to them, or acknowledge their reality. It is a break of relationship!




Matt 9:12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ a For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

I hope that Jesus's words are still a part of your scriptures, Carbon!



Yep, we are out of relationship with God, the only source of life and peace/harmony which means we walk according to "the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience."

Yep, we cannot reconcile the relationship between us and God. Only the offended party can effect the restoration of a relationship!




Again, we are not talking about unbelievers, but born again people who follow the Spirit's leading.



No we do not say "all you have to do is make a decision"! We also say that we must repent, confess, and receive the grace of God through belief in his Son.

When I preach the gospel, I never, never, never (and yes, by this I mean never), say anything about Prevenient Grace or the means by which belief is made possible! Like Francis Shaeffer, I preach the deadlines of sin, and the sinfulness of man first, and the result that that condition will experience, and then about the only hope to escape this by faith in what Christ has graciously done for us.


Doug
can you articulate what tenet of Calvinism depends on claiming that the dead have no faith and cannot respond to get life?
Said another way, what falls apart for Calvinists if a spiritually dead person is able to entrust themselves to Jesus to be indwelt?
Or have you wondered about this?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
can you articulate what tenet of Calvinism depends on claiming that the dead have no faith and cannot respond to get life?
Said another way, what falls apart for Calvinists if a spiritually dead person is able to entrust themselves to Jesus to be indwelt?
Or have you wondered about this?

Monergism!

Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
can you articulate what tenet of Calvinism depends on claiming that the dead have no faith and cannot respond to get life?
Said another way, what falls apart for Calvinists if a spiritually dead person is able to entrust themselves to Jesus to be indwelt?
Or have you wondered about this?

Why the uncharitable attitude, seth?
You constantly try to project unseemly motives to Calvinists, like "They're trying to protect their doctrines".

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with "doctrines".
It has to do with SCRIPTURE.

SCRIPTURE teaches man's INABILITY (John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, etc.)
SCRIPTURE teaches that man is DEAD in sins (Eph. 2:1, Col 2:13)
SCRIPTURE teaches that man is SLAVE to sin (John 8:34, Rom. 6:16-22).
SCRIPTURE teaches that faith is a GIFT of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc.)
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Why the uncharitable attitude, seth?
You constantly try to project unseemly motives to Calvinists, like "They're trying to protect their doctrines".

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with "doctrines".
It has to do with SCRIPTURE.

SCRIPTURE teaches man's INABILITY (John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, etc.)
SCRIPTURE teaches that man is DEAD in sins (Eph. 2:1, Col 2:13)
SCRIPTURE teaches that man is SLAVE to sin (John 8:34, Rom. 6:16-22).
SCRIPTURE teaches that faith is a GIFT of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc.)
It's a concept don't ya know.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Can you give a brief explanation of what that means and why monergism necessitates that a person cannot believe without being regenerated?

Seth, with all do respect, I’m going to just let you think through this yourself. If think you understand Calvinism enough to debate here, you should not have to ponder long to know why monergism necessitates “that a person cannot believe without being regenerated!”

Doug
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Seth, with all do respect, I’m going to just let you think through this yourself. If think you understand Calvinism enough to debate here, you should not have to ponder long to know why monergism necessitates “that a person cannot believe without being regenerated!”

Doug
Amen !
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Seth, with all do respect, I’m going to just let you think through this yourself. If think you understand Calvinism enough to debate here, you should not have to ponder long to know why monergism necessitates “that a person cannot believe without being regenerated!”

Doug
Sorry I asked.
 
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