But God

Theo1689

Well-known member
You have been told this 100 times.

You have been corrected a million times.
Yet you continue to refuse to accept correction.
What's your point?

The Bible does not teach that faith merits salvation.

You don't believe in Biblical faith (which is a gift of God).
You believe in merited faith.

It teaches that faith is counted as righteousness and that is how God can save you: He sees you as righteous.

Yes, that's speaking of Biblical faith, not the faith you believe in.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Faith is the work of God, not the work of man; John 6:29.
You are repeating a standard Calvinist misrepresentation of scripture.
In that passage the people ask "How can WE work the works of God" Jesus tells them, "the work of God is to believe."
he was answering their question. They wanted to do miracles like they had seen Him do and were asking what they had to do so that they could have the faith for the miraculous. Jesus corrected their goals, telling them the work God wanted them to do was to believe. He was not telling them that faith was a work, he was telling them where their effort should be directed: strive for faith.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are repeating a standard Calvinist misrepresentation of scripture.
In that passage the people ask "How can WE work the works of God" Jesus tells them, "the work of God is to believe."

And you actually think that Jesus is stupid enough to let others control the narrative?

"The work of God" means it is GOD's WORK that we believe.
Us believing is GOD's work, because He GAVE us the faith to believe.

he was answering their question.

... according to HIS purpose, not theirs.

They wanted to do miracles like they had seen Him do and were asking what they had to do so that they could have the faith for the miraculous. Jesus corrected their goals, telling them the work God wanted them to do was to believe.

Hahahaha!

So now you've changed, "the work of God is to believe",
to "the work of God is GOD WANTS YOU to believe".

What makes you think you can play fast and loose with the word of God?

He was not telling them that faith was a work, he was telling them where their effort should be directed: strive for faith.

If that was what He meant, He would have SAID "strive for faith".
But that's NOT what He said.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Can you tell me how that works in your doctrine related tothe standrad claim that faith is a work?
Faith counted as righteousness. Explain how that fits Calvinism.
I don’t believe faith is a work.
I do not believe the natural man (those dead in sin) have saving faith. We lost it at the fall when we spiritually died.
Man does not have the natural ability to create faith and believe unto salvation.

I believe The Spirit regenerates a lost sinner, giving them a new heart, making them alive spiritually - the new birth. The new man in Christ has been restored to his pre-fall condition which possesses faith. He is now able to see the things of the Spirit. I also believe we don’t have to make a decision to believe once regenerated because believing is part of the new man.
We then believe in our heart (Romans 10) and confess Christ because we do believe.

You probably disagree but at least consider my explanation so you can understand my position.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I don’t believe faith is a work.
I do not believe the natural man (those dead in sin) have saving faith. We lost it at the fall when we spiritually died.
Man does not have the natural ability to create faith and believe unto salvation.

I believe The Spirit regenerates a lost sinner, giving them a new heart, making them alive spiritually - the new birth. The new man in Christ has been restored to his pre-fall condition which possesses faith. He is now able to see the things of the Spirit. I also believe we don’t have to make a decision to believe once regenerated because believing is part of the new man.
We then believe in our heart (Romans 10) and confess Christ because we do believe.

You probably disagree but at least consider my explanation so you can understand my position.
I accept that you personally do not identify faith as a work, though many calvinists here claim that if a person says they believed and got saved, that is a work.
I do think even mainstream teaches your idea of being restored to a prefall condition. In that doctrine I am not mainstream
And I think mostly what you are saying is what I have understood is the most common Calvinist position on many of your positions.

And probably our primary difference is that I see faith to be saved as entrusting yourself to Christ.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
faith is another. faith is not equal to salvation

Two different things,
No salvation without faith. Not possible.

I thought you said salvation is all God, but you must be talking out of both sides of your mouth. Your unregenerate faith does not cause salvation to happen however much you think it does.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
can you articulate what tenet of Calvinism depends on claiming that the dead have no faith and cannot respond to get life?
Said another way, what falls apart for Calvinists if a spiritually dead person is able to entrust themselves to Jesus to be indwelt?
Or have you wondered about this?
The bible is clear enough for anyone who want's to learn. Calvinism does not teach "Calvinism depends on claiming that the dead have no faith and cannot respond to get life?" The Bible teaches that.

Again, Calvinists don't teach that "Calvinists if a spiritually dead person is able to entrust themselves to Jesus to be indwelt?" We have never said that. STOP misrepresenting us. Any elect person will come to Christ. It's what the Bible says.

 

fltom

Well-known member
Sorry you preach falsehoods where faith is not part of salvation.
You discard the Spirit of God and glorify in self.
Sorry but faith and salvation are two different things

God saves those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God saves

man believes

two separate acts

you confound as one
 

fltom

Well-known member
No salvation without faith. Not possible.

I thought you said salvation is all God, but you must be talking out of both sides of your mouth. Your unregenerate faith does not cause salvation to happen however much you think it does.
Salvation is all of God

but faith is not the same thing as salvation

you confuse two separate acts because your theology tells you so

The bible never speaks of unregenerate faith. Again your theology causes you to makeup terms not found in the bible

It is not that I am talking out of both sides of my mouth but that you have a confused theology
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Salvation is all of God

but faith is not the same thing as salvation
Faith is not the same thing as salvation is obvious and not what anyone is saying.

Salvation without faith as you know not possible.

I thought you said salvation is all God, but you make faith not God therefore salvation not God.
You claim the work of the Holy Spirit for yourself. You have no fear of the LORD
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
I see everyone agrees we are saved by grace through faith. But the issue is, though they say it,
their practice and theology deny it.

Many just don’t get it. We know scripture speaks about being saved, but many don’t think they actually need to be saved. But think they need to be helped, they need good news or good advice. The gospel is just a way to have a happy life and reduce stress in life.

But that is to be expected from the dead and those who do not understand the word of God. The dead are told by many, their just sick or drowning. Jesus throws you a life preserver and all you have to do is grab it before it’s to late. Problem is, the dead don’t grab anything. They can’t, their dead.

According to scripture, your not drowning, your not sick; your dead. Your not almost dead, your dead!
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— Eph 2.
There is just no way around it! Dead is, dead.

And unbelievers are not only dead, they can do nothing about it.
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

Some think all they need to do is make a decision. Just decide to have faith and believe. They teach God uses prevenient grace to get you headed in the right direction, so you can make a choice to believe. They should stop lying to lost sinners.

But Scripture teaches:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— Eph 2.
Hey Brother, what do you say to those who think this theology is just awful, and is not loving in anyway?
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Monergism!

Doug
Here you go, Doug, " to entrust themselves." This is exactly what we have been pointing out. Sinners still trying to entrust themselves, is a false notion, of a subjective selfie, in that sinners are bent inward, instead of upward.
 
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