Calvin vs the ECF's

David1701 said:
I added a little bit, after your reply.

The thing is that we start off hard-hearted, then we get harder, unless God intervenes and makes us born again. The force operating upon us (sin) is like gravity upon a stone. The stone goes downward, unless a stronger and opposing force lifts it up.
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I believe you might enjoy this post I made a long time ago. I have came to understand more now than I did then so I would tweek a few things but apart from that it gets the point across. Let me know what you think…


Thread 'Sin Nature... Like A Rock!'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/sin-nature-like-a-rock.1239/
 
Sketo said:
I believe you might enjoy this post I made a long time ago. I have came to understand more now than I did then so I would tweek a few things but apart from that it gets the point across. Let me know what you think…


Thread 'Sin Nature... Like A Rock!'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/sin-nature-like-a-rock.1239/
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I like it!

One little point that I would make, is that LFW does not require that other factors be removed; rather, it requires that man's will can overcome them, somehow - including fallen man's own nature and desires! The whole idea is preposterous, but most don't think it through.
 
David1701 said:
I like it!

One little point that I would make, is that LFW does not require that other factors be removed; rather, it requires that man's will can overcome them, somehow - including fallen man's own nature and desires! The whole idea is preposterous, but most don't think it through.
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In that case you might like my rendition of Flip-a-coin-ism from back in the day…
Sketo said:
Libertarian Freewillism is like a random chance dice game!

I like to call it Flip-a-coin-ism because when you exhaust all possibilities that could determine the outcome, in this system, they are reduced to mere “influences” and because of that you are still left with a random chance outcome!

To understand this description consider...

If everything outside of the will is merely an influencer and what goes on within the will is a “mystery” then it could be explained like this...

Imagine you have two options, x and y, and the will create a 2 sided coin! On one side is x and on the other side is y!

X|Y

Then will considers an influence like “desire” and it happens to be for option x. Now the coin turns into a 3 sided die... with 2 sides for x and one side for y. Still random chance with slightly better odds for x.

X|X|Y

Then the “influence” of “personality” is considered and it is for y, so we now have a 4 sided die... with 2 sides x and 2 sides y. Practically back to a coin again with the odds.

X|X|Y|Y

This keeps going until all influences are considered and at the end you may, for example, end up with a 20 sided die with 9 sides for x and 11 sides for y... but still random!

X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|

Inside the will is now the creation of this complex die and the die is thrown by the will and whichever of the 20 sides it finally lands on is the option chosen!

Maybe this time it “mysteriously” lands on y, but if you notice above this is not what “desire” had influenced... therefore since desire is a mere influence, and not a cause, this is what you may get according to Libertarian Freewillism!

Sorry “desire”... better LUCK next time!!!

—

In this system one may desire Christ... but remember “desire” is only an “influence”, and not a cause, therefore “will” may perhaps “randomly” choose against desire and there is nothing God can do about it without violating your so called “libertarian freewillism”!

Man centered system! Flip-a-coin-ism!
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What do you think?
 
Sketo said:
In that case you might like my rendition of Flip-a-coin-ism from back in the day…


What do you think?
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Yes, a logically identified possibility.

The human subconscience is what really controls us. It might be the seat and voice box of our "conscience/Holy Spirit" aspect.

When a person is driven by their subconscious mind they may or may not be aware of it. Science has shown at the point of many physical skill actions/reactions our brain enters a state of heightened alpha-wave activity. I have been there many times, it is called "the groove," or "the zone."

This has to be part of God's Creation. I see it as a sort of system of action "loops" which operate when triggered. In fact, this is how most work effort and athleticism is done with muscle memory.

Decisions apart from the subconscious are very difficult and tedious.
 
Jabez said:
It is Satanic. Calvinism has no Fruit of Righteousness. They nurture illusions and falsehoods. Calvin did not love his detractors but was complicit in their murder. He was a young little guy with a big mouth. A Tare planted by the Enemy of God.
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Yes there are many false teachings within their system and many within Christendom perceive their portrayal of god to be a monster . It’s why they are the minority view within Christianity. A renegade systematic so to speak that stands and falls upon a flower ? named tulip ?. Remove one petal and the flower wilts and dies. It’s easy to do with every letter from scripture.

hope this helps !!!
 
Sketo said:
In that case you might like my rendition of Flip-a-coin-ism from back in the day…


What do you think?
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Yes! I've made the point about an element of randomness in LFW myself. It would be like a loose cannon - unpredictable and dangerous.

Another point about LFW is that, if it were real, police profilers would be useless; and, much worse, since randomness cannot be predicted, by definition, logically, this would lead to Open Theism and the downgrading of God.
 
David1701 said:
Yes! I've made the point about an element of randomness in LFW myself. It would be like a loose cannon - unpredictable and dangerous.

Another point about LFW is that, if it were real, police profilers would be useless; and, much worse, since randomness cannot be predicted, by definition, logically, this would lead to Open Theism and the downgrading of God.
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Are you saying criminals are determined by the police?

It is clear to me you really do not understand LFW
 
fltom said:
Calvinism presents God in a negative light
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The BIBLE teaches that God hates sin.
The BIBLE teaches that God hates sinners (Ps. 5:5, etc.)
The BIBLE teaches that sinners are deserving of nothing but eternal torment.

Yes, the BIBLE presents God in a very negative (relative to human sinners) light.
But it is wrong to reject the parts of the BIBLE you don't like, and trying to justify it by labelling it "Calvinism".


Chalcedon said:
Yes very unloving at best.
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No sinner is deserving of the love of God.
For God to love even ONE sinner is an amazing thing.
But God loves BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of sinners.

So for you to call that "unloving" makes you very unappreciative and entitled.

fltom said:
Yet Calvinist believe the non Calvinist just wants to exalt man but the objection to Calvinism is based on a desire to exalt the character of God
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Wrong again.
It is CALVINISM which "exalts the nature of God", namely His holiness, His power, His longsuffering, etc. etc.

It is objection to Calvinism which DESTROYS the character of God, by trying to castrate the attributes that you don't like, and to try to inflate other attributes past what God Himself intended.

When as an Arminian, I finally came to the undeniable recognition that Calvinism was Biblically true, I was absolutely crushed as sinner. And God became a million times holier than I had ever imagined. And because His holiness increased a million times, His grace to save such a wretched sinner increased a millionfold as well.

What an AWESOME God we serve!
What a GRACIOUS God we serve!
What a LOVING God we serve.

I think it is a mistake for Arminians to judge God's love by "how many" sinners He loves. I think the proper way to gauge God's love (not that we have any right to even do so) is by judging it by the DEPTHS of His love for any wretched sinner.

And for anyone to say that such a God is "very unloving", IMO doesn't even KNOW the God of the Bible.
 
fltom said:
Are you saying criminals are determined by the police?

It is clear to me you really do not understand LFW
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What if “the police hardened the criminals heart so that they would disobey the law” and held them responsible for breaking the law?

It is clear to me you really don’t understand the difference between Gods relationship to his creation is different than creatures relationship to other created things.
 
Theo1689 said:
The BIBLE teaches that God hates sin.
The BIBLE teaches that God hates sinners (Ps. 5:5, etc.)
The BIBLE teaches that sinners are deserving of nothing but eternal torment.
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And Calvinism teaches God hates some before they were born not based on anything they might do


Theo1689 said:
Yes, the BIBLE presents God in a very negative (relative to human sinners) light.
But it is wrong to reject the parts of the BIBLE you don't like, and trying to justify it by labelling it "Calvinism".
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In Calvinism

in respect to his own words
And his own determinations







Theo1689 said:
No sinner is deserving of the love of God.
For God to love even ONE sinner is an amazing thing.
But God loves BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of sinners.

So for you to call that "unloving" makes you very unappreciative and entitled.
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Care to specify where I mentioned unloving in regard to any of the above?

Why do you skirt meticulous determination and unconditional reprobation




Theo1689 said:
Wrong again.
It is CALVINISM which "exalts the nature of God", namely His holiness, His power, His longsuffering, etc. etc.
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What longsuffering?

when Calvinism has God determining everything?

Is he patient with his own determinations?

What about those he claims to Love but calvinism has him determining to damnation

Holiness when Calvinism makes God the cause of all of man's sin?


Theo1689 said:
It is objection to Calvinism which DESTROYS the character of God, by trying to castrate the attributes that you don't like, and to try to inflate other attributes past what God Himself intended.
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Even God does not like plans of deception,

But Calvinism has God deceiving men who he determined to damnation into believing he loves them and does not desire that they die








Theo1689 said:
When as an Arminian, I finally came to the undeniable recognition that Calvinism was Biblically true, I was absolutely crushed as sinner. And God became a million times holier than I had ever imagined. And because His holiness increased a million times, His grace to save such a wretched sinner increased a millionfold as well.
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When you were an Arminian you got snickered by James white and a framework which all of scripture was then forced into

Further in that system man was less blame worthy than the one you gave up

In that system Man was born unable to respond positively to God according to his own decree

And if he hated God, God may have hated him first

When in the theology you left man given grace could have believed and if he did not and rejected God he was rejecting a God who loved him and sent his sonm to die for him

Man is much more blameworthy in the theology you left

and God much more glorified
 
Sketo said:
What if “the police hardened the criminals heart so that they would disobey the law” and held them responsible for breaking the law?

It is clear to me you really don’t understand the difference between Gods relationship to his creation is different than creatures relationship to other created things.
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The police hardened the criminals heart ?

Are you going to claim that as a serious possibility?

Certainly that would be worse than entrapment for which the criminal could be set free

And actually I would say you do not understand God's love for his creation
 
“And the LORD said to Moses… But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.” (Exo 4:21)


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