Calvinism and Determinism

Joe

Well-known member
Does the doctrine of Calvinism hold to the belief that God determined every thought and action of man? To add clarity; that God programmed each man to think, act, and respond as he does likened to robotic machinery.

I really do not know what Calvinism doctrine stands on this, but to explain how I understand some of this from the bible.

Sin in the heavens first, and then the fall of man was foreknown and purposed by God prior to the existence of the world. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world. All things were made by God for His pleasure and glory.

The will of the creature is subject to the parameters that God set forth before creation.
Nothing of its own power and volition can overrule God's parameters.(ie: you cannot break the parameter by not experiencing the predetermined effect established by God.)

All things are known by God for He created all things to exist within certain parameters that He established. (ie: gravity, reproduction, sin and death, obedience and life, imputation of an effect from a representative upon another, and etc.)

Nothing of its own power can operate outside of the parameters He established. (ie: drop a basketball and it falls to earth expect nothing else, sin and you are a servant to sin expect nothing else, obey and you are a servant to righteousness and will live expect nothing else, the effects of a representative will be imputed to another expect nothing less, and etc.)

God is sovereign and can overrule a parameter as He sees fit at anytime. (ie: All of the miracles that God performed in the OT and NT through Himself or through others)

God has a will and does as He pleases according to His divine nature. No one can judge God for His actions, for He is the potter and we are the clay...He is God and we are not. We were made by Him for His pleasure and glory. We are 100% subject to the will of God.

As a note: It is so easy to nit-pick something based upon bias, so please do not assume a terminology...I'm preaching this to myself too!
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Does the doctrine of Calvinism hold to the belief that God determined every thought and action of man? To add clarity; that God programmed each man to think, act, and respond as he does likened to robotic machinery.

I really do not know what Calvinism doctrine stands on this, but to explain how I understand some of this from the bible.

Sin in the heavens first, and then the fall of man was foreknown and purposed by God prior to the existence of the world. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world. All things were made by God for His pleasure and glory.

The will of the creature is subject to the parameters that God set forth before creation.
Nothing of its own power and volition can overrule God's parameters.(ie: you cannot break the parameter by not experiencing the predetermined effect established by God.)

All things are known by God for He created all things to exist within certain parameters that He established. (ie: gravity, reproduction, sin and death, obedience and life, imputation of an effect from a representative upon another, and etc.)

Nothing of its own power can operate outside of the parameters He established. (ie: drop a basketball and it falls to earth expect nothing else, sin and you are a servant to sin expect nothing else, obey and you are a servant to righteousness and will live expect nothing else, the effects of a representative will be imputed to another expect nothing less, and etc.)

God is sovereign and can overrule a parameter as He sees fit at anytime. (ie: All of the miracles that God performed in the OT and NT through Himself or through others)

God has a will and does as He pleases according to His divine nature. No one can judge God for His actions, for He is the potter and we are the clay...He is God and we are not. We were made by Him for His pleasure and glory. We are 100% subject to the will of God.

As a note: It is so easy to nit-pick something based upon bias, so please do not assume a terminology...I'm preaching this to myself too!

What's KNOWN is that NOBODY comes to Christ without being DRAWN TO HIM by Father God. (John 6:44)

SO - WHO is drawn???

God says that He will have mercy, on whom He will have Mercy, and some he "Hardens" - Rom 9:18). ONLY when one is drawn, can they SURRENDER, REPENT and call upon God for salvation in FAITH that HE Gifts them (Eph 2:8,9).

Regardless of "Systematic", or "Theological paradigm", it appears that the "door" to salvation is "Conviction of SIN and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit" - during which, a genuine repentance can be made, and a person CAN call out in gifted FAITH to God for salvation - i.e. to be Born Again of the Holy Spirit, and receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit, making them a Christian.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Does the doctrine of Calvinism hold to the belief that God determined every thought and action of man? To add clarity; that God programmed each man to think, act, and respond as he does likened to robotic machinery.

I really do not know what Calvinism doctrine stands on this, but to explain how I understand some of this from the bible.

Sin in the heavens first, and then the fall of man was foreknown and purposed by God prior to the existence of the world. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world. All things were made by God for His pleasure and glory.

The will of the creature is subject to the parameters that God set forth before creation.
Nothing of its own power and volition can overrule God's parameters.(ie: you cannot break the parameter by not experiencing the predetermined effect established by God.)

All things are known by God for He created all things to exist within certain parameters that He established. (ie: gravity, reproduction, sin and death, obedience and life, imputation of an effect from a representative upon another, and etc.)

Nothing of its own power can operate outside of the parameters He established. (ie: drop a basketball and it falls to earth expect nothing else, sin and you are a servant to sin expect nothing else, obey and you are a servant to righteousness and will live expect nothing else, the effects of a representative will be imputed to another expect nothing less, and etc.)

God is sovereign and can overrule a parameter as He sees fit at anytime. (ie: All of the miracles that God performed in the OT and NT through Himself or through others)

God has a will and does as He pleases according to His divine nature. No one can judge God for His actions, for He is the potter and we are the clay...He is God and we are not. We were made by Him for His pleasure and glory. We are 100% subject to the will of God.

As a note: It is so easy to nit-pick something based upon bias, so please do not assume a terminology...I'm preaching this to myself too!
This subject gets complicated..as for God our history has already occurred and God exist outside of our 3 dimensions + time.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Does the doctrine of Calvinism hold to the belief that God determined every thought and action of man? To add clarity; that God programmed each man to think, act, and respond as he does likened to robotic machinery.

GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.g


Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26–27.

other go even further

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
Institutes of the Christian Religion. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…


Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
 

Joe

Well-known member
GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26–27.

As I understand this, God decided before anything was made all that would come about. The fall of angels into rebellion, and subsequently the fall of man into sin, the curse upon creation, the coming of His Son to purchase men for God, the day of adoption and judgement, and eternal grace and blessed eternal life given to the adopted sons, and eternal condemnation and punishment given to those deserving.

I wouldn't call it fatalism because causes are a part of the creative design. I would call it determined because creation has freedom of will within the parameters set by God. I am not free to be a bird just because I will to be a bird....or in today's culture, me being a male am not free to be a female just because I will to be a female. Parameters set by God cannot be changed by our will.

In the case of Satan, we have little to no knowledge to understand what happened. But we can look at the case of Adam and see he was given one command to obey, and he had freedom of will to obey that command because there were no prior causes or events that determined his actions. Once Adam disobeyed God, he set into motion the condemnation of his posterity for his sin. This parameter set by God is taught and evidenced, and even used for the salvation of His people with Jesus being their head-representative. Subsequently, after Adam's sin the rest of man's history was set into motion with sin dominating every person, and the results being what we consider everyday life; disease, death, crime, wars, violence, killing, and etc. all of this is within the established parameter of rebellion against God...In other words, this is the Godless life set for those who sin.

As for number three of the quote, the glory of God will be manifest upon the coming of Christ. The day of adoption when all those in Christ are resurrected in an immortal body. Those who are dead in sin will be judged. The angels will be judged. The single sin of one man that cursed creation and condemned his posterity will be over, and the curse of sin gone from creation as all things were put under Christ and made new. God's glory will be upon all the faces of creation, as it will now live forever in peace in God's presence with nothing to cause sin.

I agree with the quoted statement as I understand it. God did not simply foreknow what was going to happen, but decided it to happen...The question to those who object to this statement is: Why did God allow Satan to bring sin into the life of mankind if He foreknew it would happen? The answer is He decided it would happen.
 

fltom

Well-known member
As I understand this, God decided before anything was made all that would come about. The fall of angels into rebellion, and subsequently the fall of man into sin, the curse upon creation, the coming of His Son to purchase men for God, the day of adoption and judgement, and eternal grace and blessed eternal life given to the adopted sons, and eternal condemnation and punishment given to those deserving.

I wouldn't call it fatalism because causes are a part of the creative design. I would call it determined because creation has freedom of will within the parameters set by God. I am not free to be a bird just because I will to be a bird....or in today's culture, me being a male am not free to be a female just because I will to be a female. Parameters set by God cannot be changed by our will.

In the case of Satan, we have little to no knowledge to understand what happened. But we can look at the case of Adam and see he was given one command to obey, and he had freedom of will to obey that command because there were no prior causes or events that determined his actions. Once Adam disobeyed God, he set into motion the condemnation of his posterity for his sin. This parameter set by God is taught and evidenced, and even used for the salvation of His people with Jesus being their head-representative. Subsequently, after Adam's sin the rest of man's history was set into motion with sin dominating every person, and the results being what we consider everyday life; disease, death, crime, wars, violence, killing, and etc. all of this is within the established parameter of rebellion against God...In other words, this is the Godless life set for those who sin.

As for number three of the quote, the glory of God will be manifest upon the coming of Christ. The day of adoption when all those in Christ are resurrected in an immortal body. Those who are dead in sin will be judged. The angels will be judged. The single sin of one man that cursed creation and condemned his posterity will be over, and the curse of sin gone from creation as all things were put under Christ and made new. God's glory will be upon all the faces of creation, as it will now live forever in peace in God's presence with nothing to cause sin.

I agree with the quoted statement as I understand it. God did not simply foreknow what was going to happen, but decided it to happen...The question to those who object to this statement is: Why did God allow Satan to bring sin into the life of mankind if He foreknew it would happen? The answer is He decided it would happen.
So God determined the fall of man and he determined to redeem at least some of his determinations
 

Manfred

Well-known member
So God determined the fall of man and he determined to redeem at least some of his determinations
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:22‭-‬24 ESV
 

fltom

Well-known member
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:22‭-‬24 ESV
What if

That out of context citation says nothing at all about any being preselected for damnation before they were born

the context tells us who finds mercy and who doesn't and why

Romans 9:22-32 (KJV)
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
 

Joe

Well-known member
So God determined the fall of man and he determined to redeem at least some of his determinations
I agree with the first part: "So God determined the fall of man". God did make a firm-unchangeable decision that Adam as the head-representative of man of his own volition would rebel against Him, thus condemning his posterity for his sin.

As for the second part: "he determined to redeem at least some of his determinations". I am not totally sure what you mean by "his determinations". If you mean that God in His original decision that Adam would rebel against Him, that He also decided to save some of his rebellious posterity by sending His Son to redeem them and be their head-representative, then yes, God did decide to do so.
 
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fltom

Well-known member
So you show again that you cannot understand scripture.

So what if God did what He did? Are you going to tell Him you don't like it, so you decide that what if has a different context to what is clearly stated.

You think the Bible is full of what if's....
Duh you started with a what if

Hello

and then you cutoff everything I stated

and then you failed to address the following comments and texts

.............................

What if

That out of context citation says nothing at all about any being preselected for damnation before they were born

the context tells us who finds mercy and who doesn't and why

Romans 9:22-32 (KJV)
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


and then you laughably claim i don't understand scripture when you were unable to rebut what I posted

truly laughable
 

fltom

Well-known member
I agree with the first part: "So God determined the fall of man". God did make a firm-unchangeable decision that Adam as the head-representative of man of his own volition would rebel against Him, thus condemning his posterity for his sin.

As for the second part: "he determined to redeem at least some of his determinations". I am not totally sure what you mean by "his determinations". If you mean that God in His original decision that Adam would rebel against Him, that He also decided to save some of his rebellious posterity, then yes, God did decide to do so.
If God determined the fall of all mankind yet he wanted to save some he has to work to undo what he determined
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Non sequitur

you assume if God did not cause it he could not have known about it

Your God is too small
So what God knows He knows by what? Simple observation? Which of course would violate His aseity

When God created the world did He know man would fall? Could your impotent god have created a world where the fall did not occur?
 

Joe

Well-known member
If God determined the fall of all mankind yet he wanted to save some he has to work to undo what he determined
God's decision that Adam of his own will would rebel, thus causing his posterity to be condemned along with his sin, and then within that same decision to save some of his rebellious posterity by sending His Son to redeem them and be their head-representative is not the same as what you're trying to drive; that God made a poor decision and then He must clean-up after Himself because He made a poor one.

We know that Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain before the world was formed. This means the decision for Adam's rebellion was calculated and purposed and so was sending Christ to redeem and become the new head-representative for some of Adam's posterity.
 
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fltom

Well-known member
God's decision that Adam of his own will would rebel, thus causing his posterity to be condemned along with his sin, and then within that same decision to save some of his rebellious posterity by sending His Son to redeem them and be their head-representative is not the same as what you're trying to drive; that God made a poor decision and then He must clean-up after Himself because He made a poor one.

We know that Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain before the world was formed. This means the decision for Adam's rebellion was calculated and purposed in the mind of God.
Own will and determination do not go together

Calvinism holds god determined all that would come to pass and it was not based upon anything God foreknew about man
 
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