Calvinism and salvation by works

Here's a hypothetical: couldn't God choose to save people by works and yet predestine the elect to perform those good works, thus making salvation still entirely a work of grace?

If it is necessary for Calvinism to be true in order for salvation by faith to be a work of grace, then wouldn't this same unconditional election make salvation by works also a work of grace?
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
Here's a hypothetical: couldn't God choose to save people by works and yet predestine the elect to perform those good works, thus making salvation still entirely a work of grace?

If it is necessary for Calvinism to be true in order for salvation by faith to be a work of grace, then wouldn't this same unconditional election make salvation by works also a work of grace?
"Calvinism" is nothing more than "Just another" theological opinion. Ephesians defines Salvation in 2:8,9. Hypothetical foolishness means NOTHING.
 

ReverendRV

Active member
Here's a hypothetical: couldn't God choose to save people by works and yet predestine the elect to perform those good works, thus making salvation still entirely a work of grace?

If it is necessary for Calvinism to be true in order for salvation by faith to be a work of grace, then wouldn't this same unconditional election make salvation by works also a work of grace?
God did choose to Save people by Works; but through the Works of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Work of God is this; believe on the One he has sent. One understanding of this is that we Keep the Covenant of Works due to Christ's Works being Imputed to us. A Works Righteousness IS Required to be Saved; particularly Christ's Works...
 

ReverendRV

Active member
Imputation ~ by Reverend RV

Romans 5:13 KJV; (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Warning! Reading this Gospel Tract could cost you your life!! Many things come with warning labels these days; medicine comes to mind. Some medicines even come with warnings that they can cause other conditions to develop that you do not want; in clinical studies taking a medicine has led to some patients dying. If a Pill causes a different ailment to develop, this is much like the Biblical understanding of Imputation; adding something to another person’s Being they didn’t have before. ~ One day, the Evangelist Ray Comfort realized something about the Gospel; it is incomplete without the Bad news of the Ten Commandments prevening (going before) the Good News of the Gospel. He developed an Evangelism method which has led many Souls to Salvation. This is where the warning applies; when a Preacher uses the Ten Commandments, God uses the Preacher like a syringe to Impute Sin. Let me show you how this works. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call someone who Lies? A Liar; right? See, when I showed you the Law of God and you saw that you broke it; this changed who you are and now you are a Liar. Have you ever stolen anything? What do you call a person that Steals? Now you are a Lying Thief. Have you ever Lusted, or Hated anyone? Jesus said Lust makes you an Adulterer at heart and Hatred makes you a Murderer at heart. ~ Imputation turns you into something that you don’t want to be; Sinners go to Hell for all Eternity…

The Apostle Paul describes it like this; “But Sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the Law of God, produces every kind of Coveting. I was alive without the Law once; but when the Commandment came, Sin revived, and I died.” ~ Sin is in the world; and now in you. The Law is like an alarm clock which wakes the sleeping Giant within. ~ But you don’t have to die in your Sins; since they were Imputed once, they can be Imputed a second time! In the Bible we read about Atoning Sacrifices. In the past on the Day of Atonement, two goats were Sacrificed; one shed it’s blood on an Alter but the other one had the Sins of Israel confessed (Imputed) onto its head, and it was led into the wilderness to never return. This isn’t practiced anymore since there’s no longer a Temple to conduct Sacrifices; but there is an alternative Sacrifice of Atonement we all can benefit from; behold the Lamb of God!

God provided a Sacrifice by sending his very own Son to be born innocent like a spotless sacrificial Lamb. Jesus lived a life of keeping the Ten Commandments and this pleased God. There came a time that Jesus had to die and shed his blood on the Cross like the goat of old. But Jesus is also like the Scapegoat, the Sins of every believer was Imputed to this innocent man; to never be seen again. We are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! When we do this there is a third Imputation; Christ’s good record is now your good record and you are good enough to go to Heaven. Find a Bible believing Church, Repent of your sins and Confess Jesus to be your Lord God. ~ Imputation is often translated as a credit that goes to your account; having an Eternal Being’s goodness as your very own, is Priceless and can never be exhausted…

Romans 4:3 ESV; For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
 

Sketo

Active member
Here's a hypothetical: couldn't God choose to save people by works and yet predestine the elect to perform those good works, thus making salvation still entirely a work of grace?

If it is necessary for Calvinism to be true in order for salvation by faith to be a work of grace, then wouldn't this same unconditional election make salvation by works also a work of grace?
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

If “saving faith” is not a gift of God then what makes it different than works?
 

zerinus

Active member
Imputation ~ by Reverend RV

Romans 5:13 KJV; (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

* * *

Find a Bible believing Church, Repent of your sins and Confess Jesus to be your Lord God. ~ Imputation is often translated as a credit that goes to your account; having an Eternal Being’s goodness as your very own, is Priceless and can never be exhausted…

Romans 4:3 ESV; For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
What does "repentance" mean in your theology, and what does it entail? What does it mean to "repent of your sins" etc., and how does one do that? (Expand the quote to see what I have highlighted.)
 
Last edited:

zerinus

Active member
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

If “saving faith” is not a gift of God then what makes it different than works?
Valid point. The truth of course is that the whole of this "imputation" caboodle is unbiblical, heretical, and false. There isn't any such thing. It is the invention of Protestant and Reformed theology, based mostly on a misreading of Paul. It is calculated to blunt the biblical requirement of genuine repentance. It is designed to provide a license for committing sin with impunity, and get away with it. Sin as much as you want, and you are covered!

Paul uses a lot of metaphor and figure of speech in his writings which lends itself to this kind of manipulation and misinterpretation. The correct biblical doctrine is forgiveness and remission of sins, through faith and genuine repentance, made possible by the sacrificial death and Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is as simple as that. Nothing complicated about it. And to "repent" means to stop sinning. It means to stop doing what one knows to be wrong, and start doing what one knows to right. It means to stop breaking God's commandments, and to start keeping them.

Ultimately, there is no salvation without keeping God’s commandments. The only thing that the Atonement does is that it makes it possible for us to repent of our past sins and be forgiven of them. Calvinism turns it into a license for committing sin. It teaches that since nobody can keep the commandments of God to perfectness, or stop sinning altogether, therefore you don't even need to try! Sin as much as you want, and you are covered! That is Calvinism. And I will tell you where it came from. It came direct from Satan. It is the doctrine of the devil. It is the recipe for damnation rather than salvation.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Here's a hypothetical: couldn't God choose to save people by works and yet predestine the elect to perform those good works, thus making salvation still entirely a work of grace?

If it is necessary for Calvinism to be true in order for salvation by faith to be a work of grace, then wouldn't this same unconditional election make salvation by works also a work of grace?
Questions like that bring in the questioning of God's Wisdom!
 
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

If “saving faith” is not a gift of God then what makes it different than works?
Because faith is not a work in any meritorious sense of the word. It's like the difference between paying your employee vs. giving money to a beggar. One is a matter of obligation, the other is not...however, the beggar isn't going to receive anything unless he asks for it.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sg

Because faith is not a work in any meritorious sense of the word.

It is when you make it a condition man does for God to save them.

the beggar isn't going to receive anything unless he asks for it.

That was his work, asking. Now if a beggar received money without asking, but it was merely conferred to him by the good will of the giver, thats not a work
 
That was his work, asking. Now if a beggar received money without asking, but it was merely conferred to him by the good will of the giver, thats not a work
But do we actually speak this way about beggars? Have you ever given something to a homeless person and thought to yourself "Well, he earned it; after all he asked me for money?" Of course not. Why then should we employ such sophistry in speaking about the charity of God towards sinners?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
But do we actually speak this way about beggars? Have you ever given something to a homeless person and thought to yourself "Well, he earned it; after all he asked me for money?" Of course not. Why then should we employ such sophistry in speaking about the charity of God towards sinners?
But if he asked you, and you reward him for that, its a work by definition, no matter how minute.
 
But if he asked you, and you reward him for that, its a work by definition, no matter how minute.
The way you are defining a "work" is not the Pauline way of defining it. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." (Rom. 4:5)
 

zerinus

Active member
Because faith is not a work in any meritorious sense of the word.
Faith is not a "work," but it is very much meritorious. There are two things about faith that stands out in the Bible. Firstly, it is portrayed as something which we have control over. We have the choice to "believe" or "not to believe". That is how faith is portrayed throughout the Bible, Old and New Testaments; otherwise people could not be "condemned" for not believing. Throughout the Bible, people are praised for believing, and reproved for not believing. That is true of the Old Testament as well as the New. Secondly, throughout the Bible faith is portrayed as being very much meritorious, if not the most meritorious thing that a man can have or do. All the blessings of God, including salvation, ultimately come through faith. Throughout the Bible faith is portrayed as being both volitional as well as being meritorious at the same time.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The way you are defining a "work" is not the Pauline way of defining it. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." (Rom. 4:5)
Im defining work the way the greek word Paul used to write it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Im defining work the way the greek word Paul used to write it.
Paul testifies against you

Romans 4 (KJV 1900)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Paul testifies against you

Romans 4 (KJV 1900)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You didnt read the definition for the word work Paul used ? I am going to post it, pay attention because you will say later I didnt explain it,like you normally do. Now the greek word work is ergon and means:

  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
  4. , a good deed, noble action

Now believing in Christ is an act of the mind or heart of man, its a work !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You didnt read the definition for the word work Paul used ? I am going to post it, pay attention because you will say later I didnt explain it,like you normally do. Now the greek word work is ergon and means:

  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
  4. , a good deed, noble action

Now believing in Christ is an act of the mind or heart of man, its a work !
No not according to Paul

Paul testifies against you

Romans 4 (KJV 1900)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 
Im defining work the way the greek word Paul used to write it.
If you define faith or belief as a work, then we are left with this absurdity in Romans 4:5 - "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his work is accounted for righteousness." But that's not what it says, is it? Don't refer to a Greek dictionary of man's invention to define for you what Paul himself defines.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No not according to Paul

Paul testifies against you

Romans 4 (KJV 1900)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You do realize Paul used the word ergon dont you?
 
Top