Calvinism and salvation by works

brightfame52

Well-known member
If you define faith or belief as a work, then we are left with this absurdity in Romans 4:5 - "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his work is accounted for righteousness." But that's not what it says, is it? Don't refer to a Greek dictionary of man's invention to define for you what Paul himself defines.
Rom 4 5 doesn't say believing isnt a work. I see the contrast, but nevertheless he doesnt say believing isnt a work !
 
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TomFL

Guest
Rom 4 5 doesn't say believing isnt a work. I see the contrast, but nevertheless he doesnt say believing isnt a work !
Your argument is silly

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

faith is clearly affirmed as not a work
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Your argument is silly

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

faith is clearly affirmed as not a work
No it doesn't say believing is not a work. Its a act of the mind!
 
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TomFL

Guest
Faith isn't a "work," but it is very much meritorious all the same. You are approved for possessing, and disapproved for not possessing it.
Depends on what you mean by meritous

Faith does not merit salvation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Faith isn't a "work," but it is very much meritorious all the same. You are approved for possessing, and disapproved for not possessing it.
believing is a work, and if one conditions their act of believing as to why God saves them, they are advocating salvation by works, the works and mind of man !
 
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TomFL

Guest
No it doesn't say believing is not a work. Its a act of the mindn!
It clearly shows faith is not a work

Your argument is silly

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

faith is clearly affirmed as not a work
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
It clearly shows faith is not a work

Your argument is silly

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

faith is clearly affirmed as not a work
No believing is a work, an act of the mind. Its just like a lusting, its a work of the mind or heart. Well believing, its a work of the mind !
 
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TomFL

Guest
No believing is a work, an act of the mind. Its just like a lusting, its a work of the mind or heart. Well believing, its a work of the mind !
Give it up

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

faith is clearly affirmed as not a work
 
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TomFL

Guest
Believing is a work of the mind !
Paul is to be believed over you

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

faith is clearly affirmed as not a work
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Depends on what you mean by meritous
By that I mean that throughout the Bible people are approved, condoned, blessed for possessing it; and condemned, disapproved of, for not possessing it.
Faith does not merit salvation
Salvation cannot be obtained without it either. So heads I win, and tails you lose! Here are some verses for you to look at:

Hebrews 11:

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3:

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Now tell me again that faith does not merit salvation!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Believing is a work of the mind !
That is one way of looking at it I suppose:

John 6:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


So heads I win, tails you lose! :)
 
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TomFL

Guest
By that I mean that throughout the Bible people are approved, condoned, blessed for possessing it; and condemned, disapproved of, for not possessing it.

Salvation cannot be obtained without it either. So heads I win, and tails you lose! Here are some verses for you to look at:

That is irrelevant. The point is there is nothing in faith that earns or merits salvation

Salvation is still by grace
 

zerinus

Well-known member
That is irrelevant. The point is there is nothing in faith that earns or merits salvation

Salvation is still by grace
Thank you. So does faith play a role at all in salvation, or not? What do you do with a scripture like this:

Mark 16:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Sounds pretty clear to me, not sure about you.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Thank you. So does faith play a role at all in salvation, or not? What do you do with a scripture like this:

Mark 16:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Sounds pretty clear to me, not sure about you.


Did you see any place faith was denied as necessary? It was stated faith does not earn salvation. that salvation is by grace,

Do you not understand the difference ?

m
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Did you see any place faith was denied as necessary? It was stated faith does not earn salvation. that salvation is by grace,

Do you not understand the difference ?

m
Can you tell me what is the difference between faith earning salvation, and faith being required for salvation?

In either case,
no faith = no salvation. So what is the difference between the two?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Can you tell me what is the difference between faith earning salvation, and faith being required for salvation?

In either case,
no faith = no salvation. So what is the difference between the two?
The difference is you make faith a meritorious work by which one earns salvation and obligates God as as a matter of justice to save while the bible presents salvation through faith as a gift of grace not a reward due for your efforts
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
That is one way of looking at it I suppose:

John 6:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


So heads I win, tails you lose! :)
The mind is at work when think through facts !
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The difference is you make faith a meritorious work ...
I said nothing about "work," that is your addition.
... by which one earns salvation and obligates God as as a matter of justice to save ...
No idea where all that came from either. The Bible teaches that faith is a requirement for salvation, period. No faith, no salvation. It also teaches that if you fulfil the requirements, your salvation is guaranteed:

Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


"No respecter of persons" means that God does not discriminate, he does not have favourites. He treats everyone alike. He applies the same standard of salvation to everyone alike. That means that if you fulfil the conditions for salvation (faith and repentance), your salvation is guaranteed. Now how you want to define that in the English vernacular, that is up to you. But that is the unquestionable and undeniable doctrine of the Bible.

... while the bible presents salvation through faith as a gift of grace not a reward due for your efforts
It also makes faith requirement. It also guarantees salvation for those who fulfil that requirement. That is what the Bible says.
 
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