Calvinism, Edwards, Necessity & Certainty

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Do you think he is conflating Foreknowledge with something like the Double Slit Experiment in Quantum Physics? That experiment says no one knows which way a Photon goes until it's Observed, so in a way the Observer causes the course of the Photons to be Certain. Wouldn't Certainty then be Necessary?
Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not, in which case I'd appreciate it if you would enlighten me. It could also be that I haven't accurately expressed my intended meaning.

I don't see where anything in the OP or in the Edwards quote points toward God being in any way dependent upon creation. As for photons, God's knowing of which way they will go does not in itself cause them to go that way. God's control is not merely by knowing which way they will go, but by exerting His power in such a way, directly or indirectly, to effect the desired result. But just knowing the result does not in any way cause the result.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not, in which case I'd appreciate it if you would enlighten me. It could also be that I haven't accurately expressed my intended meaning.

I don't see where anything in the OP or in the Edwards quote points toward God being in any way dependent upon creation. As for photons, God's knowing of which way they will go does not in itself cause them to go that way. God's control is not merely by knowing which way they will go, but by exerting His power in such a way, directly or indirectly, to effect the desired result. But just knowing the result does not in any way cause the result.
Quantum Theory says that the Observer is the Determiner; but yes, you could express your intended meaning better for us..
 
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TomFL

Guest
Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not, in which case I'd appreciate it if you would enlighten me. It could also be that I haven't accurately expressed my intended meaning.

I don't see where anything in the OP or in the Edwards quote points toward God being in any way dependent upon creation. As for photons, God's knowing of which way they will go does not in itself cause them to go that way. God's control is not merely by knowing which way they will go, but by exerting His power in such a way, directly or indirectly, to effect the desired result. But just knowing the result does not in any way cause the result.
Yes foreknowledge is not determination
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yes foreknowledge is not determination

The Scriptures in question don't use the noun, "foreknowledge".
They use the VERB, "foreknow" (or "foreknew").
And a verb is an ACTION word.

And according to BDAG, Strong's, UBS Lexicon, Newman's Greek dictionary, and Mounce, it means
"choose beforehand";
"determine beforehand";
"foreordain".
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
It's funny that people want a god that determines all things concerning creation or any other thing, yet doesn't determine anything concerning themselves. They'll "take over at that point," proving their god is really not truly God at all, but is literally themselves.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Quantum Theory says that the Observer is the Determiner; but yes, you could express your intended meaning better for us..
I'm no physicist but it seems to me that QT says that "photons in the quantum state remain indeterminate until they are measured or observed." While such theory, experiments and applications are fascinating, they are, if nothing else, woefully incomplete and mysterious. Thankfully, God has blessed us by revealing certain truths that we could never grasp through science alone, such as the fact that He is in control of everything, and nothing happens outside of His plan. Is not God in control of what is observed, who or what observes it, and when? And He has seen it all from His eternal perspective--seeing not only His creation but also His own interactions with that creation.
 
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TomFL

Guest
The Scriptures in question don't use the noun, "foreknowledge".
They use the VERB, "foreknow" (or "foreknew").
And a verb is an ACTION word.

And according to BDAG, Strong's, UBS Lexicon, Newman's Greek dictionary, and Mounce, it means
"choose beforehand";
"determine beforehand";
"foreordain".
To foreknow is to know before

It is an english word

foreknow
[fôrˈnō]

VERB
literary




  1. be aware of (an event) before it happens.
    "he foreknows his death like a saint"

    foreknow​

    verb


    fore·know | \ (ˌ)fȯr-ˈnō \
    foreknew\ (ˌ)fȯr-ˈnü , -ˈnyü \; foreknown\ (ˌ)fȯr-ˈnōn \; foreknowing

    Definition of foreknow


    transitive verb
    : to have previous knowledge of : know beforehand especially by paranormal means or by revelation






    To foreknow is to know before not determine







 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
To foreknow is to know before

It is an english word

foreknow
[fôrˈnō]

VERB
literary




  1. be aware of (an event) before it happens.
    "he foreknows his death like a saint"

    foreknow​

    verb


    fore·know | \ (ˌ)fȯr-ˈnō \
    foreknew\ (ˌ)fȯr-ˈnü , -ˈnyü \; foreknown\ (ˌ)fȯr-ˈnōn \; foreknowing

    Definition of foreknow


    transitive verb
    : to have previous knowledge of : know beforehand especially by paranormal means or by revelation






    To foreknow is to know before not determine






See the word verb in your post? LOL
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
To foreknow is to know before

It is an english word

foreknow
[fôrˈnō]

It's funny that you want to talk about the GREEK word, "world", when you think the definition suits you...

But when the Greek lexicon(s) DON'T suit you, you pretend the important thing is the "English" word, not the underlying GREEK word.

Inconsistency is the sign of improper exegesis.
 
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TomFL

Guest
It's funny that you want to talk about the GREEK word, "world", when you think the definition suits you...

But when the Greek lexicon(s) DON'T suit you, you pretend the important thing is the "English" word, not the underlying GREEK word.

Inconsistency is the sign of improper exegesis.
What was funny is you tried to define the english word foreknow by the greek

As i wrote

To foreknow is to know before

It is an english word

foreknow
[fôrˈnō]

But you used the Greek proginosko

and ignored the definition of foreknow

As for world you refused to address the argument I provided of the english text John 12:47

an you flubbed the Greek as well and were refuted by BAGD

You tried to get around it by redefining the word especially but you would not respond to either scriptural or common use of the word showing you were busted

Discussing the word world is probably the last thing you should want to do

Both the Greek and the English supported me and refuted you
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Was there supposed to be some sense in what you posted ?
Th
What was funny is you tried to define the english word foreknow by the greek

As i wrote

To foreknow is to know before

It is an english word

foreknow
[fôrˈnō]

But you used the Greek proginosko

and ignored the definition of foreknow

As for world you refused to address the argument I provided of the english text John 12:47

an you flubbed the Greek as well and were refuted by BAGD

You tried to get around it by redefining the word especially but you would not respond to either scriptural or common use of the word showing you were busted

Discussing the word world is probably the last thing you should want to do

Both the Greek and the English supported me and refuted you
That was a yes or no question
 
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TomFL

Guest
Yes, your not very observant. The word is a verb just as theo pointed out
The word forknowledge is not a verb

The word foreknow is

You are testifying against yourself as the part of speech of the word foreknow was never in question
 
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TomFL

Guest
The Scriptures in question don't use the noun, "foreknowledge".
They use the VERB, "foreknow" (or "foreknew").
And a verb is an ACTION word.

And according to BDAG, Strong's, UBS Lexicon, Newman's Greek dictionary, and Mounce, it means
"choose beforehand";
"determine beforehand";
"foreordain".
Just for the record you left off the gloss of almost all lexicons

προγινώσκω 2 aor. προέγνων, ptc. προγνούς; pf. pass. ptc. προεγνωσμένος (Eur., X., Pla.+; BGU 1141, 39 [14 BC]; Wsd) know beforehand, in advance, have foreknowledge

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 703.

1 to have knowledge before hand

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

GK G4589 | S G4267 προγινώσκω proginōskō 5x
to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with,


4126. προγινώσκω proginōskō

verb

Know beforehand …

In fact all the lexicons give to know before as a possible meaning for proginosko
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
@Theo1689 & @Reformedguy , the topic here is not about the definition of foreknew, etc. in any particular text. Rather the topic is whether God's knowing of an event ahead of time somehow determines that event. I contend that God determines events not by mere knowledge of them ahead of time, but by the exercise of His power. Knowledge alone is not the exercise of power.
 
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