Calvinism, Edwards, Necessity & Certainty

ReverendRV

Well-known member
@Theo1689 & @Reformedguy , the topic here is not about the definition of foreknew, etc. in any particular text. Rather the topic is whether God's knowing of an event ahead of time somehow determines that event. I contend that God determines events not by mere knowledge of them ahead of time, but by the exercise of His power. Knowledge alone is not the exercise of power.
Is the Providence of God a part of the topic?
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Okay. But to me, Providence is God's Decree in Action. I think you are wanting to talk about whether God's Decree is Sequential or not?
God's decree is carried out sequentially by His Providence, but the decree itself is part of God's eternal, atemporal, perfect and complete knowledge (omniscience). Mainly, the intended topic here is whether or not God's merely knowing something ahead of time causes that thing to come to pass in such a way that precludes free will in the matter.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
God's decree is carried out sequentially by His Providence, but the decree itself is part of God's eternal, atemporal, perfect and complete knowledge (omniscience). Mainly, the intended topic here is whether or not God's merely knowing something ahead of time causes that thing to come to pass in such a way that precludes free will in the matter.

OR, His decree is what He will cause to come to pass.

I decree and prophesy there will be a period at the end of this sentence.

See how easy it is when you are the One who ensures that your decreed future will occur?

Mind you I could have died half way through that....... but God can't.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
God's decree is carried out sequentially by His Providence, but the decree itself is part of God's eternal, atemporal, perfect and complete knowledge (omniscience). Mainly, the intended topic here is whether or not God's merely knowing something ahead of time causes that thing to come to pass in such a way that precludes free will in the matter.
I meant Sequentially as a result of Foreknowledge. Calvinism wouldn't think God's Decree is Sequential as a result of God's Foreknowledge. First Sequence = Foreknowledge, second Sequence = Decree; Cause and Effect. Calvinism thinks God's Decree is, in a sense, baseless...
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
I meant Sequentially as a result of Foreknowledge. Calvinism wouldn't think God's Decree is Sequential as a result of God's Foreknowledge. First Sequence = Foreknowledge, second Sequence = Decree; Cause and Effect. Calvinism thinks God's Decree is in a sense baseless...
I'm not following...
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I meant Sequentially as a result of Foreknowledge. Calvinism wouldn't think God's Decree is Sequential as a result of God's Foreknowledge. First Sequence = Foreknowledge, second Sequence = Decree; Cause and Effect. Calvinism thinks God's Decree is baseless...

OR,
1. I God know what I want
2. I God shall decree what I want to be.... to my people Israel.
3. I God shall prophesy it will be and I will do this through my prophets whom I raise up
4. I God shall make sure it shall be because I have the power to make sure it does
5. I God shall make sure what I want comes to pass no matter what humans may or may not obey my will.

God will ensure He gets the results He wants whether any man obeys Him or not.

He can raise up stones if He so requires.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I'm not following...
If you put Foreknowledge as the first Runner in a Relay Race, and put God's Decree in as the second Runner, there's a Sequence. Passing the Baton is Sequential. In Calvinism, God's Decree is baseless because it's not based on God's Decree having to wait for the Baton to pass to it from God's Foreknowledge...

Foreknowledge can't Cause God's Providence...
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
If you put Foreknowledge as the first Runner in a Relay Race, and put God's Decree in as the second Runner, there's a Sequence. Passing the Baton is Sequential. In Calvinism, God's Decree is baseless because it's not based on God's Decree having to wait for the Baton to pass to it from God's Foreknowledge...

Foreknowledge can't Cause God's Providence...
I might need a little more help on how foreknowledge relates to decree, but I agree that the former cant cause the latter.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I might need a little more help on how foreknowledge relates to decree, but I agree that the former cant cause the latter.
Ken Hamrick said:
@Theo1689 & @Reformedguy , the topic here is not about the definition of foreknew, etc. in any particular text. Rather the topic is whether God's knowing of an event ahead of time somehow determines that event
The reason I brought it up is because you said that. I thought you said the Thread is about whether or not Foreknowledge is Determinative. If it is, God's Providence is Sequential as it follows Foreknowledge...

If that's true, there are a lot of consequences then, consequences which are wrong. We would Merit Grace because our Faith is the first Sequence in the Logical Order...
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
The reason I brought it up is because you said that. I thought you said the Thread is about whether or not Foreknowledge is Determinative. If it is, God's Providence is Sequential as it follows Foreknowledge...

If that's true, there are a lot of consequences then, consequences which are wrong. We would Merit Grace because our Faith is the first Sequence in the Logical Order...
IF I'm understanding you, then what you see as sequential, I see as circular. What is foreknown has to be foreknown, for it cannot be foreknown otherwise; and what is foreknown has to be, for it cannot be otherwise. If foreknowledge is determinative, then the knowledge is made irrelevant, swallowed up in the "fore." Where do the specifics of any foreknown moment come from? Foreknowledge, if determinative, becomes decree and the power to effect it bound in one.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
@Theo1689 & @Reformedguy , the topic here is not about the definition of foreknew, etc. in any particular text. Rather the topic is whether God's knowing of an event ahead of time somehow determines that event. I contend that God determines events not by mere knowledge of them ahead of time, but by the exercise of His power. Knowledge alone is not the exercise of power.
That would make God the author of sin and that is unbiblical

James 1:13–14 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 Corinthians 10:13–14 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 

civic

Well-known member
The Scriptures in question don't use the noun, "foreknowledge".
They use the VERB, "foreknow" (or "foreknew").
And a verb is an ACTION word.

And according to BDAG, Strong's, UBS Lexicon, Newman's Greek dictionary, and Mounce, it means
"choose beforehand";
"determine beforehand";
"foreordain".
@TomFL how convenient of you to disregard every single Greek NT Lexicon above then use an online secular dictionary for the NT Greek words definition. But 99.999999999 % of the time you use BDAG and the others to throw in our face when it suits you.

Houston we have a problem !

hope this helps !!!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
@TomFL how convenient of you to disregard every single Greek NT Lexicon above then use an online secular dictionary for the NT Greek words definition. But 99.999999999 % of the time you use BDAG and the others to throw in our face when it suits you.

Houston we have a problem !

hope this helps !!!
lol, its not we that has a problem its the choice meats side that has innumerable problems
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The Scriptures in question don't use the noun, "foreknowledge".
They use the VERB, "foreknow" (or "foreknew").
And a verb is an ACTION word.

And according to BDAG, Strong's, UBS Lexicon, Newman's Greek dictionary, and Mounce, it means
"choose beforehand";
"determine beforehand";

"foreordain".

Is that what proginōskō means at Acts 26:5? Jews foreordained Paul?

Or does it simply mean the Jews knew Paul beforehand, that is, in the past?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
@TomFL how convenient of you to disregard every single Greek NT Lexicon above then use an online secular dictionary for the NT Greek words definition. But 99.999999999 % of the time you use BDAG and the others to throw in our face when it suits you.

Houston we have a problem !

hope this helps !!!

You have a major problem

The first being the definition of the word foreknew which is what the discussion concerned is an english word not Greek

I do not use a Greek lexcicon to define an english word

That is what english dictionaries are for

foreknow does not mean to chose

The second being foreknow, know before is the primary or gloss meaning of proginosko of almost every lexicon
 
T

TomFL

Guest
lol, its not we that has a problem its the choice meats side that has innumerable problems
Another scripture less comment based upon innuendo and context less guilt by association tactics

along with a penchant to make claim which he cannot support
 

civic

Well-known member
You have a major problem

The first being the definition of the word foreknew which is what the discussion concerned is an english word not Greek

I do not use a Greek lexcicon to define an english word

That is what english dictionaries are for

foreknow does not mean to chose

The second being foreknow, know before is the primary or gloss meaning of proginosko of almost every lexicon
you just refuted your own claim in post 33. :ROFLMAO:

"Foreknew" therefore does not merely suggest "a passive gathering of infallible knowledge of the future actions of free creatures" but rather reveals that from start to finish, salvation is a Divine accomplishment, for it is God and God alone who saves, to the praise of His glory alone.white


see below for an exegesis, not what you do which is eisegesis.


 
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