Calvinism, Edwards, Necessity & Certainty

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
You seem confused.

Acts 26:5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee.

So now you are arguing that proginosko means "for a long time"? Do tell.

Sorry but hat's not what the Greek text says. It literally says, "knowing me beforehand."

What they actually "knew" here was that Paul "lived as a Pharisee". That is not a person. that is a "thing", a piece of knowledge. So in this instance (according to BDAG), it simply means, "knew beforehand"

Yeah it means they knew him beforehand --> IN THE PAST. The word here has nothing to do with knowing a future.

And the same word has nothing to do with knowing a future at Romans 8:29 either.

Accord to BDAG and other lexicons, when the object of "proginosko" is a person, the meaning is "CHOOSE beforehand".

The word has nothing to do with "choosing." That would be injecting theological notions into the lexical meaning of a word.

The Jews at Acts 26:5 weren't "choosing" anything.
 
Last edited:
T

TomFL

Guest
Lets see

Acts 26:5 (KJV)
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Me - Paul is a person not a thing
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Lets see

Acts 26:5 (KJV)
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Me - Paul is a person not a thing

They are so busy parroting what their Calvinists books have told them that they are entirely missing the point. Total blindness.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Everyone look at Tom, dancing around with the chip on his shoulder, goading everyone to argue with him..... "Please! Please argue with me! Please, Please let me tell you how wrong you are and how stupid you are! Please! Please, I need the attention! Please!"
Translation you can't do it
Foreknew is a verb so it's not what He knows. You have yet to deal with that fact. Shocking I know
was that a serious reply

because foreknow is a verb that means God cannot foreknow something ?

That is a total non sequitor
 
T

TomFL

Guest
That's simply not true.

So I can only conclude you didn't bother to read my post before posting, which is what others have already said.



See where it repeatedly says, "beforehand"?
That's due to the prefix "fore".



Irrelevant.
The order of the denotations is irrelevant.



You are simply wrong.

Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Here He "foreknew" PEOPLE, so the meaning is "chose beforehand".

Rom. 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Here He "foreknew" PEOPLE, so the meaning is "chose beforehand".

Sorry you ignore the context which shows it was men from the past he knew

Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

men from the past who have died and are now glorified

they had loved God

Romans 11:1-4 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

men from the past who God foreknew not chose before but foreknew

Romans 11:2 (ESV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (CSBBible)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah — how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NET1)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NIV2011)
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

Romans 11:2 (NKJV)
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,

Romans 11:2 (NRSV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

foreknew and not a single chose before

the same is true concerning Romans 8:29

Foreknew is another meaning for prognosko which is not choose before

so it seems the translations do not support your claim regarding a meaning of chose before in in Romansc 8 or 11
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
To know is an action. That the word in Greek is a verb proves nothing. Besides, as I’ve already said, disputing the meaning of the word misses the point in this thread.
@Reformedguy it appears doing theological exegesis is meaningless when it refutes a position. Oh, only if it comes from Calvinists or the Reformed.

I'm guessing when they define a Greek word their inconsistent hermeneutic now allows that it's valid if it supports them. All that matters is who is using it:

Us? Invalid argument!

Them? A completely valid argument, inconsistent exegetical hermeneutics aside. :)
 
T

TomFL

Guest
see BDAG which contradicts you.
BDAG is contrary to every major committee translation



Romans 8:29 (ASV)
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Romans 8:29 (CSBBible)

29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:29 (ESV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:29 (HCSB)
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:29 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29 (NET1)
29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son[33] would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.[34]

Romans 8:29 (NASB77)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Romans 8:29 (NIV2011)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:29 (NKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Romans 8:29 (RSV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

not a single choose before


Romans 11:2 (ASV)
2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Romans 11:2 (CSBBible)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah — how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (ESV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (HCSB)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (KJV)

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Romans 11:2 (NET1)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NIV2011)
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

Romans 11:2 (NKJV)
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,


Romans 11:2 (RSV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli'jah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

again foreknew not choose before

But how is it you term reference to four Calvinist commentaries a fallacy of the appeal to authority

but accept an appeal to a single lexicon which is so lacking in translational support and whose claim is not consistent with the context
 

civic

Well-known member
BDAG is contrary to every major committee translation



Romans 8:29 (ASV)
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Romans 8:29 (CSBBible)

29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:29 (ESV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:29 (HCSB)
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:29 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29 (NET1)
29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son[33] would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.[34]

Romans 8:29 (NASB77)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Romans 8:29 (NIV2011)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:29 (NKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Romans 8:29 (RSV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

not a single choose before


Romans 11:2 (ASV)
2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Romans 11:2 (CSBBible)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah — how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (ESV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (HCSB)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (KJV)

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Romans 11:2 (NET1)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NIV2011)
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

Romans 11:2 (NKJV)
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,


Romans 11:2 (RSV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli'jah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

again foreknew not choose before

But how is it you term reference to four Calvinist commentaries a fallacy of the appeal to authority

but accept an appeal to a single lexicon which is so lacking in translational support and whose claim is not consistent with the context
Then quit quoting BDAG and get rid of it since you only use it to support your own ideas not those which oppose your ideas. Its called cherry picking/eisegesis. You have no objectivity when using the lexicon. You are only using it for personal gain. You are abusing the resource not using the resource to determine truth.

hope this helps !!!
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Foreknew is a verb so it's not what He knows. You have yet to deal with that fact. Shocking I know
I’m not saying you’re wrong in arguing that much more is intended by foreknew in the passages you refer to; but the argument from whether it’s a verb fails. That’s all.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
@Reformedguy it appears doing theological exegesis is meaningless when it refutes a position. Oh, only if it comes from Calvinists or the Reformed.

I'm guessing when they define a Greek word their inconsistent hermeneutic now allows that it's valid if it supports them. All that matters is who is using it:

Us? Invalid argument!

Them? A completely valid argument, inconsistent exegetical hermeneutics aside. :)
Seriously Theo

You know it being a verb has nothing to do with knowing whether it is a thing or a who

Why do you post as though you support what you know to be not true ?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
BDAG is contrary to every major committee translation



Romans 8:29 (ASV)
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Romans 8:29 (CSBBible)

29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:29 (ESV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:29 (HCSB)
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:29 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29 (NET1)
29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son[33] would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.[34]

Romans 8:29 (NASB77)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Romans 8:29 (NIV2011)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:29 (NKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Romans 8:29 (RSV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

not a single choose before


Romans 11:2 (ASV)
2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Romans 11:2 (CSBBible)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah — how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (ESV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (HCSB)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (KJV)

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Romans 11:2 (NET1)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 (NIV2011)
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

Romans 11:2 (NKJV)
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,


Romans 11:2 (RSV)
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli'jah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

again foreknew not choose before

But how is it you term reference to four Calvinist commentaries a fallacy of the appeal to authority

but accept an appeal to a single lexicon which is so lacking in translational support and whose claim is not consistent with the context

You need to realize that BDAG will be cited when they think they can use it to promote their self justifications. And BDAG will be summarily ignored when they suppose it doesn't. That way, they get to be the final authority on every matter but pretend someone else is. That's how you do it in their messed up world.

Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

In Biblical parlance, this is described as satisfying the desires of the flesh.

The practitioners of this behavior will refuse to acknowledge their behavior, and when this behavior is pointed out to them, they will respond with more confirmation bias. See Pharisees in the Gospel accounts for an illustration of the very same problem.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Seriously Theo

Actually, you were responding to Preacher4Truth, not me.

But thanks for proving you don't pay any attention to anything posted here.

You know it being a verb has nothing to do with knowing whether it is a thing or a who

Why do you post as though you support what you know to be not true ?

Why do you continue to misrepresent Calvinists with worthless straw-man arguments we never made?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Then quit quoting BDAG and get rid of it since you only use it to support your own ideas not those which oppose your ideas. Its called cherry picking/eisegesis. You have no objectivity when using the lexicon. You are only using it for personal gain. You are abusing the resource not using the resource to determine truth.

hope this helps !!!
You ignored the fact that when it comes to a meaning for proginosko at Romans 8 and 11 there is no major committe translational support for BADG claim

That does not mean it should be thrown away but like any non scriptural reference it must be used with discernment

and not blindly follow when it has no committee translational support and its claim does not appear consist with the context of the passage it cites

And the deciding factor here is not the view of either of us but the translations and the context
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Actually, you were responding to Preacher4Truth, not me.

But thanks for proving you don't pay any attention to anything posted here.



Why do you continue to misrepresent Calvinists with worthless straw-man arguments we never made?
Ok there are so many of you posting at once

In any case can you deny one of your peers appealed to foreknow being a verb as being determinative as to what can be known

examine the posts
 
Top