Calvinism is the gospel

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guest1

Guest
Hello "C"!

Calvinism is not the Gospel. IMHO, it is an explanation of the dynamics, limitations, and the process of who gets saved.
People are radically sinful a.k.a. Total Depravity. Those who get saved are unconditionally elected. Which, of course, is God's sovereign choice. The atonement is Limited to the chosen sheep, not the goats. Irresistible grace is the power of God for salvation of His sheep, those who believe. That grace is what preserves the believer.

The Gospel is summarized in 1 Corinthians:

3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared
Thanks for responding and I do not hold to irresistible grace. Stephen in Acts tells the crowd how they are stiff necked and always resisting the Holy Spirit.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Stephen in Acts tells the crowd how they are stiff necked and always resisting the Holy Spirit.

That sounds close to this passage...

Genesis 6:5
New American Standard Bible
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.

"Always resisting" sounds like people who won't and can't choose good... Just Say'n :)
 
G

guest1

Guest
That sounds close to this passage...

Genesis 6:5
New American Standard Bible
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.

"Always resisting" sounds like people who won't and can't choose good... Just Say'n :)
Saul was in the crowd when Stephen was killed in the Acts passage I quoted.

Who became Paul.

Just Say'n :)

hope this helps !!!
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Saul was in the crowd when Stephen was killed in the Acts passage I quoted.

Who became Paul.

Just Say'n :)

hope this helps !!!

It helped a lot...

Jesus said once, you did not choose me, I chose you... Just like Saul/Paul in this example

9 Now [a]Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2 and asked for letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to [c]the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them in shackles to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.” 7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the [d]voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he [e]could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Hope this helps...
 

Rockson

Active member
That sounds close to this passage...

Genesis 6:5
New American Standard Bible
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.
Your argument is right from the start after Adam + Eve sinned that was mankind's state and you don't consider that was a progressive thing taking place through different generations from Adam to Noah. Of course you can't have it that way for it destroys Calvinism but destroy it I believe it does for from Rom 1:21 it states their imaginations BECAME vain not that they were born that way.

Also 2 Tim 3:1 states, ".....that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,...." So we look at how God (through Paul) expressed this. Shall come....shall be.....and by defining it this way dictates that we should be accepting that the culture wasn't all together entirely that way in their day, or why even say SHALL COME a future tense consideration. Some as in the days of Noah. Things got worse and worse as the generations continued. Jesus even stated, as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days when Jesus comes back. So why didn't he say it's the same at all times?? He knew he had to qualify his statements. Noah's generation and the generation at the last would be similar which means all generations were and are not the same.

"Always resisting" sounds like people who won't and can't choose good... Just Say'n :)
But then again in your REAL world outside of trying to defend a theological position you see it all the time. Haven't you seen people who are "always resisting" help let's compare it to drug addiction. Someone says they need help and they "always resist" it.....until one day they hit rock bottom and then they choose to get it. You don't say they couldn't have chosen any place along the way admitted they needed help or say it was beyond their ability to.
 

Rockson

Active member
It helped a lot...

Jesus said once, you did not choose me, I chose you...
I believe we can also consider he was talking about being chose to be in the Apostolic ministry and that their ministry would produce fruit. Not everybody is called to be even in the five fold ministry gifting so the ministry fruit Jesus was talking about there doesn't apply to everyone, that is everyone and most people actually who are saved. Yes all Christians are called to produce fruit but the chosen aspect for ministry is different. If a common Christian asked the Apostles why wasn't I chosen as you they'd tell them not to worry about it as it had nothing to do with Jesus choosing people for salvation but for a particular type of service. What you quote was from Jn 15:16 but it starts in John 13:1 where it's just Jesus and his Apostles at the last supper.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
I believe we can also consider he was talking about being chose to be in the Apostolic ministry and that their ministry would produce fruit. Not everybody is called to be even in the five fold ministry gifting so the ministry fruit Jesus was talking about there doesn't apply to everyone, that is everyone and most people actually who are saved. Yes all Christians are called to produce fruit but the chosen aspect for ministry is different. If a common Christian asked the Apostles why wasn't I chosen as you they'd tell them not to worry about it as it had nothing to do with Jesus choosing people for salvation but for a particular type of service. What you quote was from Jn 15:16 but it starts in John 13:1 where it's just Jesus and his Apostles at the last supper.

You seem to go to great extents to disprove the obvious. Paul was a chosen vessel. He was a Christian killing Church hater. The road to Damascus changed a lot of things. Most importantly, Paul became born-again... Not by his choice, but Christ's... You can't get around that... Well, you could use some weasel words and just talk around it...
 

Rockson

Active member
You seem to go to great extents to disprove the obvious. Paul was a chosen vessel. He was a Christian killing Church hater. The road to Damascus changed a lot of things. Most importantly, Paul became born-again... Not by his choice, but Christ's... You can't get around that... Well, you could use some weasel words and just talk around it...
Well Yoda let's consider. Don't think these are such words, (weasel words) from Acts 26 where Paul describes to King Agrippa the fulness of the event at Damascus.
He states to Agrippa, he WAS NOT DISOBEDIANT to the heavenly vision. If this was locked in guaranteed where the potential was not there for him to be disobedient then why would he even mention it? If Calvinism were true there would be NO reason. A more accurate statement would have been God's irresistible grace worked in me. He didn't say that. It's implied he could have disobeyed the Lord but choose not to. And that would have been the perfect perfect, PERFECT place to settle that issue once and for all and God would have known that KNOWING the future of the Calvinist/Non Calvinists disagreement. What God had clearly laid out was that Paul COULD HAVE not yielded to Christ. Now you spoke of weasel words. I'll choose not to insult you by saying the same BUT....how do you talk around what I'VE just said???
 

David1701

Well-known member
Thanks for responding and I do not hold to irresistible grace. Stephen in Acts tells the crowd how they are stiff necked and always resisting the Holy Spirit.
It's irresistible SAVING grace, not irresistible grace in general. As you well know.
 
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